Question about all the animal stances.

[elbows_and_knees]

But the fact remains that a boxer does not grab, grapple or throw!! So dropping their body weight is less of a necessity. I am talking about grabbing an opponent, pulling to hikite and using an arm to drop them The stance would be a big help, rather than relying on strength. This has NO relevance to boxing....

Moreover I am not in competition against other arts. I don't really care what a boxer does or a judoka, but what I am my students do is my concern, and we see what works and what doesn't and learn from that.

judoka grab. Heck, even from a karate standpoint, since you are still using judo base throws. kazushi is what achieves the throw. Now, once again, in that respect, dropping of the body CAN indeed achieve kazushi, but isn't NEEDED. that's my only point.

[P.A.L]

Most stances are directional - they are about projecting your mass in a given direction, in order to gain a better effect. If I want to drop someone I could use my arm strength, or I could use horse stance in which case my whole body weight is behind the technique.

you don't need stance for that. the term "sitting down on a punch" is used in boxing all the time, and they don't project their mass in a given direction -they stay centered.

she simply says that useing your body mass and assuming a correct body position (stance) helps your technique and you don't have to arm wrestle a guy over a take down, it had nothing to do with boxing and judo, one more thing , karate doesn't use judo base throws since it predates modern Judo, all throws in karate are simple jujitsu or chin-na techniques.

Edited August 20, 2006 by P.A.L

[jaymac]

Most stances are directional - they are about projecting your mass in a given direction, in order to gain a better effect. If I want to drop someone I could use my arm strength, or I could use horse stance in which case my whole body weight is behind the technique.

you don't need stance for that. the term "sitting down on a punch" is used in boxing all the time, and they don't project their mass in a given direction -they stay centered.

she simply says that useing your body mass and assuming a correct body position (stance) helps your technique and you don't have to arm wrestle a guy over a take down, it had nothing to do with boxing and judo, one more thing , karate doesn't uses judo base throws since it predates modern Judo, all throws in karate are simple jujitsu or chin-na techniques.

Very well put. I tried reading through everyone's posts. It has gotten to be a heated discussion. Stances basically are going to vary amongst all styles. Typically in Shotokan (at our dojo), our stances are low when doing kata. Our kiba dachi is much lower than Funakoshi's. When we are doing actual self defense, we are not getting our body into low stances. We transfer our weight, use our hips, and try to use as little muscle possible to subdue an opponent. Just using good technique is the most effective way. Sometimes I think, with Funakoshi being as short statured as he was, that a low stance would be a disadvantage for him anyways.

[elbows_and_knees]

Most stances are directional - they are about projecting your mass in a given direction, in order to gain a better effect. If I want to drop someone I could use my arm strength, or I could use horse stance in which case my whole body weight is behind the technique.

you don't need stance for that. the term "sitting down on a punch" is used in boxing all the time, and they don't project their mass in a given direction -they stay centered.

she simply says that useing your body mass and assuming a correct body position (stance) helps your technique and you don't have to arm wrestle a guy over a take down, it had nothing to do with boxing and judo, one more thing , karate doesn't use judo base throws since it predates modern Judo, all throws in karate are simple jujitsu or chin-na techniques.

and notice I never said it doesn't help. But the way it was stated was that that stance is a necessity, and it's not, as I pointed out. As for judo based throws, shotokan does NOT predate judo, and its founder trained with jigoro kano. AngelaG trains shotokan. In addition, since judo stemmed from jujutsu, it's techniques technically ARE jujutsu techniques, though the purposes behind the two arts may differ.

[Jiffy]

Most stances are directional - they are about projecting your mass in a given direction, in order to gain a better effect. If I want to drop someone I could use my arm strength, or I could use horse stance in which case my whole body weight is behind the technique.

you don't need stance for that. the term "sitting down on a punch" is used in boxing all the time, and they don't project their mass in a given direction -they stay centered.

she simply says that useing your body mass and assuming a correct body position (stance) helps your technique and you don't have to arm wrestle a guy over a take down, it had nothing to do with boxing and judo, one more thing , karate doesn't use judo base throws since it predates modern Judo, all throws in karate are simple jujitsu or chin-na techniques.

and notice I never said it doesn't help. But the way it was stated was that that stance is a necessity, and it's not, as I pointed out. As for judo based throws, shotokan does NOT predate judo, and its founder trained with jigoro kano. AngelaG trains shotokan. In addition, since judo stemmed from jujutsu, it's techniques technically ARE jujutsu techniques, though the purposes behind the two arts may differ.

Jigaro Kano and Gichin Funakoshi were friends. Shotokan and Judo were created at about the same time because jointly they were looking for a way to increase the population in their martial arts. Kano felt it was better to create a whole new way, so he took out the "Jitsu" and replaced it with "Do", hence Judo. Similarly, funakoshi studied Karate-Jitsu. He too took out the "Jitsu" and called it "Karate-Do". It was later named "Shotokan Karate-Do" by his students to honour their master.

In regards to the throws, as mentioned, at that time, JuJitsu throws and Judo throws were the same thing, but as evolution continues, they have evolved in some schools to be different.

[P.A.L]

Most stances are directional - they are about projecting your mass in a given direction, in order to gain a better effect. If I want to drop someone I could use my arm strength, or I could use horse stance in which case my whole body weight is behind the technique.

you don't need stance for that. the term "sitting down on a punch" is used in boxing all the time, and they don't project their mass in a given direction -they stay centered.

she simply says that useing your body mass and assuming a correct body position (stance) helps your technique and you don't have to arm wrestle a guy over a take down, it had nothing to do with boxing and judo, one more thing , karate doesn't use judo base throws since it predates modern Judo, all throws in karate are simple jujitsu or chin-na techniques.

and notice I never said it doesn't help. But the way it was stated was that that stance is a necessity, and it's not, as I pointed out. As for judo based throws, shotokan does NOT predate judo, and its founder trained with jigoro kano. AngelaG trains shotokan. In addition, since judo stemmed from jujutsu, it's techniques technically ARE jujutsu techniques, though the purposes behind the two arts may differ.

well if according to you assuming a correct stance for performing each particular technique is not a necessity and it just helps, then next time you practice your judo based throws , just stay in upright natural stance and use your hands and center of gravity, and do the throws and let us know how it works out.

if your hands are in seoinage and you throw from pulling in forward stance then it's not a seoinage anymore it is consider as a taiotoshi throw, the stance makes a difference that you are throwing from hip or hand/leg

as for judo and jujutsu, when you talk about karate then throws are jujutsu based anyway doesn't matter what kind of karate. maybe there are some sports that use judo techniques but karate in general is not one of them.

[ff100]

I didnt see it listed

Crane stance sometime referred to as Tsuru Ashi Dachi, Sagi Ashi Dachi and Gankaku dachi.

Used to move out of the way of a low leg strike. Used in Karate and weapons kata.

[alsey]

almost all karate techniques, including the throws, come from kung fu, not jujitsu. a lot of them are very similar however.

also, i don't quite get the 'its stance, no its not its kazushi' debate. the stances as they are demonstrated in the kata are part of kazushi as i understand. the stances are a bit rigid and exagerated in kata but i see judoka using them all the time.

[bushido_man96]

almost all karate techniques, including the throws, come from kung fu, not jujitsu. a lot of them are very similar however.

also, i don't quite get the 'its stance, no its not its kazushi' debate. the stances as they are demonstrated in the kata are part of kazushi as i understand. the stances are a bit rigid and exagerated in kata but i see judoka using them all the time.

In forms, the stances are static. In self-defense, or in throwing arts such as judo, they become transitionary tools, to improve the ability to perform techniques and get from point A to B effectively.

[alsey]

yeah, that's what i was saying. i see judoka using karate stances all the time, they just don't look the way the look in a kata. the stances are part of kazushi, even if you don't notice it.