Question about all the animal stances.

[Brandon Fisher]

Just to add to that according the the book Unante there are 14 different versions of Passai / Bassai Kata.

[P.A.L]

The pictures adn video I have seen of funakoshi doing kata the stances were still pretty high.

Here are a couple of examples:

http://www.karate.org.yu/images/Funakoshi%20bojutsu.gif

http://www.karate.org.yu/images/G.Funakoshi.JPG

http://www.shotokai.jp/english/about/images/photo_gichin2.jpg

http://www.ilguerriero.it/images/artimarziali/karate/Funakoshi.jpg

This one is shows a fairly low stance:

http://www.karatetygr.cz/t_obrazky/Funakoshi%20vede%20lekci_st.JPG

This one is not real clear:

http://perso.orange.fr/le_ronin/Photos_Karate/Funakoshi%20Gishin%2005.jpg

I hope that helps illustrate on how I have come to my conclusion.

Brandon,

thanks again for good pictures, 3rd picture is tekki and I can see that he was using a high shiko dachi (i am pretty much sure it's just because of age that kiba dachi turns to natural shiko dachi) , the 4th picture is a classic Naihanchi dachi in Naihanchi shodan.

Angela,

what i'd like to say is that a high kiba dachi may be used to initiate a throw but i really think droping into low kiba dachi from a high move may cause severe damage to knee legaments, or pulling and droping into kiba dachi is even more dangerous when the body naturally tends to use shiko dachi. you also mentioned " A change in heigt in kata gives up movements" ,this is a good topic ,we can open a new thread about this,

one more thing, we know how Funakoshi and mutobo hated each other and Mutoto was keep saying Funakoshi doesn't know karate, and that Naihanchi dachi was mutobo's favorit fighting stance, and he loved Naihanchi kata, may be kiba dachi was Funakoshi's final revenge to destroy Mutobo's legacy( i know it's creazy)

[P.A.L]

Just to add to that according the the book Unante there are 14 different versions of Passai / Bassai Kata.

matsumura passai

passai dai

passai sho

bassai dai

bassai sho

tomari passai

i can't think of anything else, actually i am looking at this list ,i can only see 2 main kata Matsumura version and Tomari, i am sure TKD guys have their own version of Bassai too,

[elbows_and_knees]

I've always been wondering what the point of having so many of the animal stances in many Martial Arts including some styles of Karate are. I've only learned the Horse stance thus far, and not to be ignorant, but i don't see how it would be useful in a fight. I've always been interested in the animal stances and i think they are pretty cool, but i don't know how they can be useful in a fight. How would you do some of the kicks and punches that you normally do in a free stance, when in a horse stance, or cat stance, tiger, etc... The whole stance of the legs and body is totally different.

stances aren't static - you don't hold them. you transition from one to the other while you are fighting. For example, someone throws a punch, I shift my weight back into a cat stance and block. I then step forward into a bow and arrow stance and lunge punch. He throws a roundhouse at my body and I shift into a back stance then block. He next kicks at my head and I lower into snake creeps down (longfist kung fu) and let it go over my head...transition. that's what stance is about.

As for grappling, after you throw tai otoshi, look at your body - you are in something resembling a bow and arrow stance. o goshi and ippon seionage will leave you in a horse stance. This is how stance has its use in grappling.

[elbows_and_knees]

Most stances are directional - they are about projecting your mass in a given direction, in order to gain a better effect. If I want to drop someone I could use my arm strength, or I could use horse stance in which case my whole body weight is behind the technique.

you don't need stance for that. the term "sitting down on a punch" is used in boxing all the time, and they don't project their mass in a given direction -they stay centered.

[elbows_and_knees]

Horse stances and cat stances are transitional moves, and the names just make more sense than "stance where your legs are spread out slightly more than shoulder width and feet pointing straight ahead so that you can train just your arms", and "stance where one foot is kind of on its toes and your weight is 90/10".

Actually, in one school I trained, we used more contemporary names. The horse stance was a "straddle legged stance", the bow and arrow was a "forward stance" and the back stance was a "60 / 40" stance, for example.

[elbows_and_knees]

Front stance - pushing

Back stance - pulling

Middle stance - dropping

Rear stance - in and down.

you can't really say that in all cases, though. look at it from judo terms:

tai otoshi - forward stance - pulling.

seionage - middle stance - pulling AND dropping.

sumi gaeshi - rear stance - pulling and dropping.

I prefer the weight distribution analogies.

[Brandon Fisher]

I will look up the list later tonight and post them.

[AngelaG]

Front stance - pushing

Back stance - pulling

Middle stance - dropping

Rear stance - in and down.

you can't really say that in all cases, though. look at it from judo terms:

tai otoshi - forward stance - pulling.

seionage - middle stance - pulling AND dropping.

sumi gaeshi - rear stance - pulling and dropping.

I prefer the weight distribution analogies.

No it's simplified... it's up to people to see how to best apply the weight. Also I have only mentioned the main stances, on top of that there are other stances such as hangetsu-dachi, sanchin-dachi, shika-dachi, fudo-dachi etc. These all apply mass in a different direction.

(BTW I purposely use mass rather than weight as the equation F=MA refers to mass) http://www.karateresource.com/articles/ebooks/physics_of_striking.pdf

Edited August 17, 2006 by AngelaG

[AngelaG]

Most stances are directional - they are about projecting your mass in a given direction, in order to gain a better effect. If I want to drop someone I could use my arm strength, or I could use horse stance in which case my whole body weight is behind the technique.

you don't need stance for that. the term "sitting down on a punch" is used in boxing all the time, and they don't project their mass in a given direction -they stay centered.

Who says you don't need stance for that? Just because the boxers don't do it while punching does not mean that it's right, and certainly when talking about things out of a boxer's remit, such as grappling and throws. And the mass is also centred, there is no off-balancing, the head stays over the hips, it's just that the body mass is dropped. This is particularly useful for westerners who tend to move from the upper body, as it lowers the COG more towards the hara.

EDIT: Also refer to the article linked to above.