Question about all the animal stances.

[AngelaG]

Front stance - pushing

Back stance - pulling

Middle stance - dropping

Rear stance - in and down.

[bushido_man96]

Front stance - pushing

Back stance - pulling

Middle stance - dropping

Rear stance - in and down.

Good analogies, too! Thanks.

[Brandon Fisher]

Do you guys have a viable source on the kiba dachi usage that I can see?

Yes, as I said before Kiba Dachi drops the body weight. All stances are transitional - the work is done in getting into the stance.

I meant that it was created due to fighting from horse back sorry I wasn't clear about what I meant.

[P.A.L]

Do you guys have a viable source on the kiba dachi usage that I can see?

Yes, as I said before Kiba Dachi drops the body weight. All stances are transitional - the work is done in getting into the stance.

I am disagree here, although kiba dachi is not a traditional stance in okinawan karate, still shows the characteristics of Naihanchi dachi, all the stances in this family of stances like different versions of Sanchin dachi or Naihanchi dachi (even in Hangetsu) should be used in a upward movment because of foot inward angle , a good example is Matsumura Hakutsuru , at the end of the kata there are two upward attack in Naihanchi starting from low and one downward attack in Shiko dachi starting from high,

to check this out, we can try this , assume a high kiba dachi , now try to drop the weight, and from a deep kiba dachi try to hit high, it's more comfortable when you hit high, if you do the same thing in shiko dachi then you can see it's easier to drop low because of outward foot angle , so although kiba dachi is a deep stance but it is actually designed to move up and hit.

[Brandon Fisher]

Correct this is how I use kiba dachi also but my basics and all my kata are Okinawan actually from Shorin Ryu so that would explain alot. I teach kiba dachi more in Ju Jitsu for strength and balance more than anything. Even In Ju Jitsu I will use the kiba dachi to help make throws while not staying in the stance but to shoot up from the stance with a great deal of power to help with the throw. When practicing naihanchi I do it with Naihanchi Dachi personally but teach it with kiba dachi for tournament competition just for looks however it does not have the strength of naihanchi dachi in my opinion. My advanced kyu ranks and black belts know naihanchi dachi very well though. I don't even suggest kiba dachi on finishing techniques because you still have to bend over to strike. If you miss you are on the ground because the attacker will yank you right off your feet.

I hope this made sense.

[P.A.L]

Correct this is how I use kiba dachi also but my basics and all my kata are Okinawan actually from Shorin Ryu so that would explain alot. I teach kiba dachi more in Ju Jitsu for strength and balance more than anything. Even In Ju Jitsu I will use the kiba dachi to help make throws while not staying in the stance but to shoot up from the stance with a great deal of power to help with the throw. When practicing naihanchi I do it with Naihanchi Dachi personally but teach it with kiba dachi for tournament competition just for looks however it does not have the strength of naihanchi dachi in my opinion. My advanced kyu ranks and black belts know naihanchi dachi very well though. I don't even suggest kiba dachi on finishing techniques because you still have to bend over to strike. If you miss you are on the ground because the attacker will yank you right off your feet.

I hope this made sense.

do you know who came up with the idea of kiba dachi?, was there a kiba dachi before tekki kata?

[Brandon Fisher]

I don't know for sure but I would love to find out. I have asked myself the very same question before. From what I have found it was Funakoshi's son that lowered the stances in Shotokan even though Gichin Funakoshi did not what it. Gichin Funakoshi taught Okinawan Karate in fact Shotokan was not named by him but his students based on his pen name. So my guess is that it came about with the Tekki Kata and possibly the JKA.

[AngelaG]

I disagree that kiba dachi is up. I think it has been altered so much from the naihanchi-dachi that there is little resemblance left any more. A change in heigt in kata gives up up movements. Kiba dachi is closer to shika-dachi (square stance) than naihanchi-dachi (IMO).

by the way, if you look at a video of Master Funakoshi doing kata (my sensei has one), you will note that his stances were very low - so I am not completely convinced that it was Yoshitaka that brought in the low stances. Maybe it just suited to let people believe that.

[Brandon Fisher]

The pictures adn video I have seen of funakoshi doing kata the stances were still pretty high.

Here are a couple of examples:

http://www.karate.org.yu/images/Funakoshi%20bojutsu.gif

http://www.karate.org.yu/images/G.Funakoshi.JPG

http://www.shotokai.jp/english/about/images/photo_gichin2.jpg

http://www.ilguerriero.it/images/artimarziali/karate/Funakoshi.jpg

This one is shows a fairly low stance:

http://www.karatetygr.cz/t_obrazky/Funakoshi%20vede%20lekci_st.JPG

This one is not real clear:

http://perso.orange.fr/le_ronin/Photos_Karate/Funakoshi%20Gishin%2005.jpg

I hope that helps illustrate on how I have come to my conclusion.

[bushido_man96]

I disagree that kiba dachi is up. I think it has been altered so much from the naihanchi-dachi that there is little resemblance left any more. A change in heigt in kata gives up up movements. Kiba dachi is closer to shika-dachi (square stance) than naihanchi-dachi (IMO).

by the way, if you look at a video of Master Funakoshi doing kata (my sensei has one), you will note that his stances were very low - so I am not completely convinced that it was Yoshitaka that brought in the low stances. Maybe it just suited to let people believe that.

Referring to the discussion of low and high stances, I remember reading an article in Black Belt Magazine years ago, about the form Bassai Dai, I believe. It showed some variances between different schools/organizations, showing some of the same moves in high and low stances. The reasoning was that the high stances were preferred by the shorter statured people of a certain region, so that they would appear taller. And the lower stances were performed more by the taller people of another region, which would lower their high center of gravity.

Food for thought. I cannot confirm the ideas here, but I did read them.