Kung Fu In Combat

[vietdao]

Great Forum.

I don't know...

I really would say it's the school. In my area, the toughest school I know is a southern praying mantis school (the teacher is amazing, and the students can really fight). However, I know a few guys who are really excellent martial artist and are fluent in karate. The person I train with, is affluent in Shorin Ryu Karate and is an amazing fighter.

In short, I think that there are a lot of martial artists who are part of schools who are not teaching well rounded street fighting methods (such as sparring with face hits, and fighting with multiple opponents). I know some people may call this training a little dangerous, but with the right type of equipment and proper conditioning, drilling, and speed (our sparring and fighting training started out slow when I began, and then sped up through time), it's really not so bad. Personally, I have found that this type of training has really helped me in being able to use my techniques in unpredictable situations.

[HG]

Man, I wrote a LONG reply to this from my smartphone while I was at work last night, and the blasted phone wouldn't post it. I was TICKED.

LOL I know what you mean, it can be incredibly frustrating.

that's actually the point - do what comes natural. It's like boot camp. The purpose is purely to instill that survival instinct - you do what you have to to try and survive. After you have developed this, you are refined and learn to control the instinct. IME, this method is actually easier than trying to first teach someone, refine them, THEN instill "killer instinct". Because now, what comes natural to them isn't that wild rage or raw strength - they are trying to use the techniques they spent so much time refining, which

1. aren't always natural

2. aren't yet second nature

it's confusing.

Yes, it's very confusing. The calm mind is paramount, yet a killer instinct & an intent to damage another human being is also a necessity. I guess there will always be debate on what is the best approach to find the balance between the two.

However, xingyi was used by imperial guards from what I understand...it seems completely irrational to think that it and other styles always took so long to learn, considering how and when they were used. you can't take an untrained man and toss him on the battlefield if his only training was spending several months learning a proper stance. you can't create a soldier that way.

I agree. It all depends what TCMA school you happen to join, no legit school I know of takes more than a year to produce some usable raw fighting skill.

[NightOwl]

I agree. It all depends what TCMA school you happen to join, no legit school I know of takes more than a year to produce some usable raw fighting skill.

Aye, true. The problem is that most schools (depending on how you define 'legit') don't train you properly for a fight ( not just CMA, but western 'self defense classes' that they teach to soccermoms, Japanese martial arts, etc.). You always have to be careful to find the right place, no matter what the style. But really, historically speaking have there ever been a huge amount of skilled fighters? It will always be a minority, and despite a 'Karate' (always an unamed style...wonder why?) dojo being in nearly every strip mall around my house, the number of dojos and gyms teaching a legitimate MARTIAL art still remain low. CMA get a bad rap because many times it personified by contemporary wushu and an emphasis more on forms than sparring. However if more places started training using an uncooperative opponent (and there are places that do), than the CMA style in question would be much better suited for an actual combat situation.

[TigerCrane]

It's sad that great techniques and the rich traditions and culture behind CMA are being overlooked because of "McGwoons" and many illegitimate schools that look great on the surface but don't prepare you adequately for practical situations.

And this applies to all other martial arts as well. Things have been passed down from one generation to another, so information was bound to be lost or misinterpreted.

Perhaps the best thing to do is to train and see if things feel right to you. I recently left a gwoon because I disagree with their training methods and their commercial-like system. Fortunately, I was able to find a school that I am happy and proud to be a member of.

[MizuRyu]

However, xingyi was used by imperial guards from what I understand...it seems completely irrational to think that it and other styles always took so long to learn, considering how and when they were used. you can't take an untrained man and toss him on the battlefield if his only training was spending several months learning a proper stance. you can't create a soldier that way.

This is another thing we forget so often: the frequency/quality ratio of training. In this day and age, martial arts are a hobby, not a lifestyle. Most of us spend 6 hours or so a week (if you're even that lucky) training in our art, in a diluted setting, under evolved needs and numerous restrictions. Back in 'the day' kung fu was a lifestyle, those who were taught xinyiba were taught much differently than ourselves, guaranteed. They drilled for hours upon hours a day, in a combat setting, under competant instruction with realistic goals. It would be foolish and asinine to assume that these people would choose a method of combat that was ineffective to protect such important people; it had to work.

Today, our 'needs' are different, and the evolutionary course of instructional method reflects this greatly. Our jobs aren't to protect royalty, they're offices and buildings where we're nearly perfectly safe from harm and have no NEED for such training. Thus, martial arts have mainly degraded into a hobby rather than a combative practice. I've seen REAL kung fu (thank you Ving Tsun Kuen in E. Lansing), or at least as real as you'll find around here, and compared to any other school I've attended the training is drastically seperated. The ways of old: the miles of running, the endless hours of strength training, the constant hand to hand drilling, the dieting and exercise, the mental discipline, the military mindset... they've yet to truely find their home overseas, and unless people somehow find a way to dedicate so much time and effort to such a difficult and tremendous undertaking, they won't see it.

On top of this, I don't buy into the 'lost in translation' all too much. Even if illiteracy plagued the common masses in those times, most of those who practiced these arts were the wealthy or of a high 'caste', being protectors or soldiers of sorts. Chances are these people knew how to read and write, and techniques were preserved in such a fashion. Even if not to the effect that it would leave a certain lineage (which could fade, of course), the training methods wouldn't change much. If you look into all styles of fighting the effective training methods don't change: physical conditioning, mental conditioning, constant applicational training. Nothing would dilute this except loss of need, just as addition and subtraction are the foundations of mathematics.

The problem arises when the need for realistic self protection is lost, and techniques are replaced or muddled with to fit this. Couple that with drastically reduced time to train, and instruction that omits many of the basic foundations, and you end up with the large percentage of kwoons you see in America and other developed, industrialized countries.

[harmoniouswarrior]

With respect, check out Kung Fu San Soo. It is all about combat. There are good threads on it right here on this forum.

I had the good fortune to train Kung Fu San Soo for a time, and will say 'it's all about combat' is exactly right. Not sparring, not self defense, but combat (i.e., use only in places you cannot be prosecuted or sued). Not for everyone, and I couldn't do it forever (physically), but it's pretty different from some of the flashier kung fu styles (not to discredit any kung fu--just to say there are many strains). One master I know of affectionately calls kfss 'ugly kung fu.'

[baronbvp]

One master I know of affectionately calls kfss 'ugly kung fu.'

Ugly kung fu, I like that. I've seen some ugly styles that were very effective. Street fighting comes to mind. Or the gang fighting in the movie The Warriors, recognizing of course that it's a movie.

[shift]

I study Wing Lung Kung Fu. It's a Nothern Shoalin based CMA. We study Chinna (grappling) and stand up Sanshou fighting. I would say I have improved alot in my combat fighting. Honestly speaking, even though we practice, crane forms, monkey, forms, mantis and other animals, when we fight, it's kickboxing, take downs and ground fighting. These things have been in Shoalin martial arts training for centuries.

[harmoniouswarrior]

I study Wing Lung Kung Fu. It's a Nothern Shoalin based CMA. We study Chinna (grappling) and stand up Sanshou fighting. I would say I have improved alot in my combat fighting. Honestly speaking, even though we practice, crane forms, monkey, forms, mantis and other animals, when we fight, it's kickboxing, take downs and ground fighting. These things have been in Shoalin martial arts training for centuries.

Sounds like you're at a good place, shift. If you're interested in learning more about how forms are actually uselful for fighting, check out The Way of Kata (book) by Lawrence Kane & Kris Wilder. Fantastic (even though done by karate-ka, it's inclusive of CMA forms also). Also, Iain Abernethy has some great books, articles and videos along the same lines.

[baronbvp]

Also, Iain Abernethy has some great books, articles and videos along the same lines.

I own two of the books by Iain Abernethy you may be referring to: Karate's Grappling Methods: Understanding Kata & Bunkai and Bunkai-Jutsu: The Practical Applications of Karate Kata. They are both very good, very unique.

Honestly speaking, even though we practice, crane forms, monkey, forms, mantis and other animals, when we fight, it's kickboxing, take downs and ground fighting.

Why do you train one thing, and fight another? Why not use your time instead to train KB, takedowns, and grappling?