Kung Fu In Combat

[bushido_man96]

I think we are close on interpretations, shogeri. I am not saying that TKD is all-encompassing, but, neither are many other styles. MMA is very good about covering all bases, and many will still consider it only a sport.

[MizuRyu]

Kung Fu is and always will be about hard work. Without a solid foundation of the basics to build upon, no real skill will be attained.

To my knowledge, the etymology of kung fu is: "a skill aquired through hard work". It's truely a creed to practice by.

[elbows_and_knees]

Please don't bring "monks" into this because what they do does not relate to the majority of traditional martial arts and their authenticity is questionable.

Could you elaborate on this point, please? I am interested in your opinion, as I don't know a whole lot about the monks.

the warrior monks of today are said by most to merely train wushu. What the monks of today are doing is not what the monks of old did.

[elbows_and_knees]

The philosophy of the martial art form is usually expressed by the instructor. Either they teach it as a sport with some Martial aspects or application, or they teach a method of fighting that is true to the concept of Martial Art.

Both are fine (Martial Sport & Martial Art) to learn and apply in everyday life. But they are oil and water when it comes to actual application on the street.

not necessarily. in reference to the ring, strategies are different than they are in the street, but the apps aren't oil and water at all. The overall main strategy is still the same - finish it as fast as possible. An o soto gari that bounces your head off the ground and knocks you out is no different than being in shiai and getting an ippon from an o soto. The application is the same. that is why the learning curve in a streetfighting sense is higher with "sport" styles, IMO. the application is the same in live training and on the street - I don't have to modify it in class so that I don't seriously hurt my partner. On the job, everything I use daily is what I learned in sport styles - clinching, positioning, chokes and throws. Never have I used something I learned in karate or kung fu that I did not also learn in judo and muay thai.

The Chinese Art can and are often used as they need to be. They are also viewed as a sport in some instances just as other styles are.

one of the most effective chinese styles I've ever seen is also trained and competed in sport format - shuai chiao.

[elbows_and_knees]

I agree, there has to be some kind of training in place to over ride the natural fight or flight response.

definitely, but that's actually nothing that's limited to martial arts. Actually, MA can be counter productive in such situations, IMO, as they emphasize a spiritual and philosophical side and in some cases, point sparring, which can counter the instinct of actually hitting. We have had a taiji and kempo guys who both got torn up on the job. The ones we have that handle situations the best are wrestlers, football players and guys who have just had lots of fights and experience. As they say, experience is the best teacher. Football players tend to be less refined than martial artists - they just have that "ARRRR, HULK SMASH!!" attitude and it serves well as they are used to contact and are used to dishing it out.

MA training on its own really doesn't override the fight or flight response in all cases, even though most people would like for us to believe that they do. If that were true, you wouldn't see MA in the street freezing up in fights (which I've seen on many occasions), even if it is their first fight.

At this stage 'Kung Fu' goes out the window & survival mode takes over when a beginner takes a hard shot &/or starts to feel pain.

that's very true.

The are too many essential trainings to accquire at the begining stages, putting sparring ahead of them would be a big mistake.

that is the beginning of the differences we talk about. In bjj, for example, you will learn them as you go along. In the beginning, you aren't expected to tap anyone - they throw you to the sharks to teach you how to survive. After a few months or drilling and rolling, you are relaxing, working technique and becoming harder to tap. it's a side by side experience, which is why the learning curve is faster. in boxing and muay thai, you will drill, but you should be sparring within 3 - 4 months. In judo, you are usually allowed to randori after you have gotten falling down.

Contrast this to "strict" traditional training where everything is in a seperate stage, and you see what I mean. A friend of mine studied xingyi under the student of a well known master, and after 6 months, he had only learned one stance. After that, he was taught one punch. Where I trained, it wasn't as strict, but it was a while before we were allowed to spar.

No stance=No kung fu. Boring and at times grueling but an absolute requirement for proper skill development. There is no shortcut around this. Kung Fu is a demanding martial art, that being said there is a method to the madness. It kills me to watch TCMA artists bobbing up & down. All those time tested prinicples of rooting & connection gone to waste.

actually, if you look at real muay thai, they teach you not to bounce either. thai footwork is far less mobile than a shuffling boxer. That is why many schools today use boxing footwork. however, boxers are still very rooted, despite the shuffling they do.

[elbows_and_knees]

A lot of you might be upset to hear this. But a lot of Sifus only really *teach* a selected few out of all his students.

that is true. And quite obviously, it has been a contributing factor in hurting the TCMA we see today.

[elbows_and_knees]

I am sure that this is a western problem , monks do sparring every day, and last several hours.

And for sure , again , this is a Mc dojo problem.

Wing chung is traditional,comparing to other derivated forms. In my kwoon , we learn some chi sao , that is close combat derivated from wing chung, punches and blocks very close to the oponent and very fast , including elbows hits occasionally. It is very good to me , because I am not a very good blocker in short distance.

why is it that whenever people see something they feel is an inconsistency in the MA, the first thing they say is something along the lines of werterners are lazy and anything wrong is directly the fault of they way a style is trained in the west? As if there are no lousy easterners...

[bushido_man96]

I am sure that this is a western problem , monks do sparring every day, and last several hours.

And for sure , again , this is a Mc dojo problem.

Wing chung is traditional,comparing to other derivated forms. In my kwoon , we learn some chi sao , that is close combat derivated from wing chung, punches and blocks very close to the oponent and very fast , including elbows hits occasionally. It is very good to me , because I am not a very good blocker in short distance.

why is it that whenever people see something they feel is an inconsistency in the MA, the first thing they say is something along the lines of werterners are lazy and anything wrong is directly the fault of they way a style is trained in the west? As if there are no lousy easterners...

You and I see eye to eye here, E&K. I get tired of hearing of how "Americanized styles" are killing the martial arts. The fact of the matter is that in the West we are willing to question why something is done a certain way, and then see if there is a better way to do it. Unfortunately, many see this as "Americanizing" something that is "traditional" and taking away from what it was. Things change. People learn and grow. So it should be in martial arts.

[HG]

definitely, but that's actually nothing that's limited to martial arts. Actually, MA can be counter productive in such situations, IMO, as they emphasize a spiritual and philosophical side and in some cases, point sparring, which can counter the instinct of actually hitting. We have had a taiji and kempo guys who both got torn up on the job. The ones we have that handle situations the best are wrestlers, football players and guys who have just had lots of fights and experience. As they say, experience is the best teacher. Football players tend to be less refined than martial artists - they just have that "ARRRR, HULK SMASH!!" attitude and it serves well as they are used to contact and are used to dishing it out.

MA training on its own really doesn't override the fight or flight response in all cases, even though most people would like for us to believe that they do. If that were true, you wouldn't see MA in the street freezing up in fights (which I've seen on many occasions), even if it is their first fight.

We all have different martial art experiences. Done in the right way drilling is an effective way to give the fight or flight adrenline rush/response a 'direction' especially in beginners.

Dalton doesn't like those kind of smash em up hulk type bouncers - don't have the "right temperament for the trade".

that is the beginning of the differences we talk about. In bjj, for example, you will learn them as you go along. In the beginning, you aren't expected to tap anyone - they throw you to the sharks to teach you how to survive. After a few months or drilling and rolling, you are relaxing, working technique and becoming harder to tap. it's a side by side experience, which is why the learning curve is faster.

Partner practice is valuable but you need to have some thing there to train. Otherwise you resort to whatever comes natural. This just seems like a hard way to learn. I do agree with you on the importance of being relaxed though.

in boxing and muay thai, you will drill, but you should be sparring within 3 - 4 months. In judo, you are usually allowed to randori after you have gotten falling down.

This is somewhat similar to what I know. Some kind of basic movement has to be in place before sparring. That little bit of drilling made a tremendous difference for me. Also, sparring is a tool that has no more/less importance than any other from of training. It's just one more piece of the puzzle for actual usage in a self defense setting.

Contrast this to "strict" traditional training where everything is in a seperate stage, and you see what I mean. A friend of mine studied xingyi under the student of a well known master, and after 6 months, he had only learned one stance. After that, he was taught one punch. Where I trained, it wasn't as strict, but it was a while before we were allowed to spar.

It's too bad your TMCA experience didn't get you the results you were seeking. The steep learning curve in the early stages of kung fu is major drawback to some. I will continue to state there is a method to the madness.

Did your friend stick with the Hsing-I?

No stance=No kung fu. Boring and at times grueling but an absolute requirement for proper skill development. There is no shortcut around this. Kung Fu is a demanding martial art, that being said there is a method to the madness. It kills me to watch TCMA artists bobbing up & down. All those time tested prinicples of rooting & connection gone to waste.

actually, if you look at real muay thai, they teach you not to bounce either. thai footwork is far less mobile than a shuffling boxer. That is why many schools today use boxing footwork. however, boxers are still very rooted, despite the shuffling they do.

Read above I was refering to TCMA artists.

[elbows_and_knees]

Man, I wrote a LONG reply to this from my smartphone while I was at work last night, and the blasted phone wouldn't post it. I was TICKED.

We all have different martial art experiences. Done in the right way drilling is an effective way to give the fight or flight adrenline rush/response a 'direction' especially in beginners.

I agree - drilling is great. However, having seen drilling fail several times over, I also know that it's not necessarily the best thing to use for altering that response pattern, especially the way its drilled in some schools. fully cooperative, non adrenaline producing drills simply are not good for that. naturally, the more realistic the drill, the better, but short of randomly attacking a student, you can't really induce such an adrenaline response. that goes for sparring as well, however sparring can simulate it better, I would imagine.

Partner practice is valuable but you need to have some thing there to train. Otherwise you resort to whatever comes natural. This just seems like a hard way to learn. I do agree with you on the importance of being relaxed though.

that's actually the point - do what comes natural. It's like boot camp. The purpose is purely to instill that survival instinct - you do what you have to to try and survive. After you have developed this, you are refined and learn to control the instinct. IME, this method is actually easier than trying to first teach someone, refine them, THEN instill "killer instinct". Because now, what comes natural to them isn't that wild rage or raw strength - they are trying to use the techniques they spent so much time refining, which

1. aren't always natural

2. aren't yet second nature

it's confusing.

sparring is a tool that has no more/less importance than any other from of training. It's just one more piece of the puzzle for actual usage in a self defense setting.

I am in total agreement with that.

It's too bad your TMCA experience didn't get you the results you were seeking. The steep learning curve in the early stages of kung fu is major drawback to some. I will continue to state there is a method to the madness.

eh, it's not a big deal to me anymore. It frustrated me at first, but such is life. I am fully aware there is a method to the madness, but I sometimes question the origin of the method. many tcma styles were used on the battlefield. Something like shuai chiao I can understand, as it has a quick learning curve and is brutal. However, xingyi was used by imperial guards from what I understand...it seems completely irrational to think that it and other styles always took so long to learn, considering how and when they were used. you can't take an untrained man and toss him on the battlefield if his only training was spending several months learning a proper stance. you can't create a soldier that way.

Did your friend stick with the Hsing-I?

Nah. But he did stick with tcma. He had already been training tai tzu, which he still trains.