Excuseologists

[AnonymousOne]

First of all, most amateur boxers are kids who often live at home and just go to school. Most karateka who achieve black belt are adults whose lives do not revolve around the dojo, so it takes longer to achieve the same level of fighting proficiency. How many adults do you know who can successfully juggle working 50 hours a week, spending time with family and maintaining their home and other interests, and training martial arts 18+hours a week?

"First of all, most amateur boxers are kids who often live at home and just go to school. "

Not what I mean. I am talking about amateur boxers who are adults that train 6 days per week and enter competitions.

As for fitting in training, its a matter of priorities and goals.

I have fitted in that kind of schedule and maintained it for over 20 years.

Its a matter of time planning and organisation.

When I do my road work in the morning often my wife will come with me and ride a cycle along side me.

Not far from us is a lagoon with a running track around it that is 2 miles long. Every 200 metres there is exercise equipment to do chin ups, situp ups, stretches and agility ladders (if was made by the authorities for local football teams). In summer we will park under a tree and have a picknick. The family rests, enjoys the sun while I work out.

In my dojo at home in one corner we have a desk with a computer and when I train my wife often gets on the net and of course a couple of times each week my wife works out with me.

If we are creative we can find ways to involve our families. I am blessed with a very understanding and easy going wife who whole heartedly supports my goals and is happy to think of ways to involve her. Often she will suggest an outing that involves a means for me do train if I am due at that time.

When my son was just a kid I would take him to a football field and run around with him chasing a ball. While he ran to get the ball after I kicked it, I would do burpees and pushups.

Instead of driving to the store to get milk and bread I would run or do some intervals of sprints and walk (active rest).

When we go shopping for groceries instead of putting everything in the cart I would carry the heavy stuff (like bags of coal etc).

If we constantly look for ways to do training we will find it. Right now I am at my computer standing in a deep kiba dachi

Apart from this, we can always fit in a hardcore 20 minute plyometric sequence somewhere

[Sohan]

There is a lot of talk about being able to fight as a direct result of martial arts training, and that is all well and good. However, not everyone who signs up for martial arts is looking to become a fighter. Some are looking for fitness, some for a new physical challenge.

Fighting ability shouldn't have to be the only measure of becoming a black belt. I agree that a certain level of self-defense should be attained. A person should be trained well enough that they can get out of a situation of need be. This doesn't mean that they have to dance with someone for 12 rounds, just do enough to get away and get safe.

I am not trying to offend anyone, but I am trying to point out that in this new day and age, there can be more motives for doing MA than just fighting, and that if someone is still willing to put in the time and effort to the practice of their style, and doesn't want to be the greatest fighter in the world, then they are earning their rank just as well as anyone.

If people need exercise they could just go for a walk or run, join a gym or go hiking.

I cant understand anyone taking up martial arts and not being interested in fighting. Thats the whole point of it all.

Its a warriors art not a knitting club

Why do you feel the need to project your values and goals on others? There are a myriad of reasons for people to participate in martial arts, and they don't all conform to your view of why they should take part.

Just because YOU don't understand someone's motivation for participating in an activity they find enjoyable, doesn't make it invalid. In an age where being a couch potato has been raised to an art form, I couldn't care less why someone wants to train in martial arts, as long as they just do it. Attitudes like this are what keep many prospective students from ever joining a dojo.

With respect,

Sohan

[Dragn]

The martial arts have become available to the public in many ways. Sport competition is one of these ways, and the level of competition ranges from regional tournaments to Olympic competition. Often, both forms and fighting competition are available, except at the highest levels, where it is only fighting.

My mom studied TKD for a time. She never had any intentions of fighting anyone. Sure, she could defend herself if need be, but never intended on 'dancing a few rounds' with a young whipper-snapper like me.

I feel that one of the appealing factors of the martial arts is the opportunity it provides for a person to better themselves physically, emotionally, and spiritually.

Now, don't misunderstand what I am saying. Just because someone doesn't want to be a fighter does not mean that I will let them get by with bad technique and a lack of understanding to defend themselves. I am not about 'watering down' the martial arts. Far from it. I am constantly reviewing what I see in my current school, and thinking of what I would do differently if I were the chief instructor: what material I would teach, what the focus of the classes would be, and etc. The integrity of the arts, no matter which one, is very important to me.

I think that everyone who wants to try out the martial arts, should be allowed to have that opportunity, and I will provide that opportunity if I am given the chance. If they don't want to be fighters, then that is ok. What I teach, and what a student takes from the experience, may very well be two different things. And that is ok with me. If we were all the same, it would be a very boring world, wouldn't it?

I understand what your saying.

I think alot of MA teachers were thinking like this when they started adapting their teachings to suit various ages, levels and cultures.

But, invaribly it does lead to a watering down of material. Thats exactly why there is such a low standard of teaching these days.

In my system we also have "buisnessman"classes for the over 40 crowd and kids classes. They can test for shodan but its recognised as being a different class of black belt. They dont go opening their own schools and teaching. Unless they are only teaching businessman or kids classes.

Its the fighters who have proved their ability to use their techniques who run the main dojos.

We have a diet kickboxing class at my dojo for the ladies who just want to get fit. They dont get belts.

I think there are just too many people teaching self defence arts out there who have never been in a fight. Its rediculous if you think about it.

Would you want to learn swimming from someone who'd never been in the water?

So while I agree that theres alot more to benefit from MA than just fighting, I also think that there must be a balance of both.

Plus there needs to be recognisable distinctions between the real black belts and the restricted ones. Otherwise you get people with no hands on experience who are teaching theory, without the real ability to use it.

Theres alot of garbage being passed off as self defence these days.

All because of the adaptation of training techniques to accommodate the masses.

I understand that there are people who arent interested in competition but train with gutso and want to teach. I think as long as they've done the same level of training as the fighters then they could become capable teachers. They'll still have to fight for gradings. Not everyone is cut out for competition. Not every competitor is cut out for teaching.

Then some arts arent really suitable for competition. But they still need to have a certain level of practicality to their training methods which will produce people with realistic self defence skills. That requires hard training. Not something your granny, or your 7 year old can do.

Well these are just some of my current thoughts anyway.

I'd like to see a higher level of ability restored to the level of shodan.

[alsey]

some people do MA so they can become good fighters, others do it for other reasons. either reason is valid and everyone should do what they want with MA IMO.

the problem is that in arts such as karate, most schools have to cater for both types of martial aritst at the same time. you have fighters, kids, people in it just for fitness etc all in the same room doing pretty much the same thing. the fighters get annoyed with people who don't want to fight because they don't take it seriously enough, and the people who don't want to fight get annoyed with the fighters because they take it too seriously. you have lots of people with different goals all practicing together, and the poor sensei has to try and please everyone.

as i've already mentioned, i quit shotokan a couple of years ago because it just wasn't taught as a fighting art. our sensei would have liked to have made it more combative, but if he did more than half the class would quit and he'd have to shut down.

without getting too political, i think the problem ultimately lies in the nature of our society. when karate was taught as a real combat art in okinawa, a student would pledge his full commitment and loyalty to his master before training, usually he wouldn't be paying for his training either. and if he got injured, tough.

these days a sensei doesn't finish his fishing, tie up his boat then devote the rest of the day to going at it all out with his apprentice. these days he has to fund his club, and deal with insurance and over the top political correctness and stuff. if someone just set up an old school karate dojo, everyone would be like 'dude, where are your qualifications from the big organisations? where is your insurance? why can't i train just because i'm horrendously unfit? etc'. these days you have to cater for everyone and you have to be covered for everything. this isn't a bad thing, but it makes it very frustrating for those who want to learn karate as a true combat art.

this isn't such a problem for something like boxing, because everyone recognises that boxing is hard work and its fighting. but karate has been popularised so much that it has completely lost that image. a lot of fighters will dismiss karate, so true combative karate schools find it difficult to survive.

[Rick_72]

No disrespect to anyone, and this is not a confrontational post. As you can clearly see by how many post's I've made I'm new to this forum. I'm equally new to martial arts, just a few years. However, I'm not new to the term "warrior". I've been enlisted in the U S military for 15 years, and I take some offence to the standards and terms that the word "warrior" is used in these days.

I've heard the term warrior used to describe everyone from professional football players to UFC fighters.

If you can't understand how someone could take offense to the flagrant use of a simple word, I'd ask that you simply turn on the news any day of the week these days.

We train in martial arts for many reasons, however, in modern days (as in the present) very few people train in Karate (I'm using Karate as an example because this is the Karate board) so they can use it in the true sense of the word "warrior".

I'm not trying to take away from the years of dedicated training, sweat, blood, and sheer exhaustion that anyone has given to the furthing of marital arts (especially since I love Karate!), but please don't take away from those that have given their lives, and/or limbs for nothing more than the citizens of their countries or clans. The word/term Warrior belongs to them.

On another note, I whole heartedly agree with your ethos on traditional martial arts, and want nothing more than to learn the true history and practice of true Okinawan Karate.

Thank you.

[Akaratechick]

No disrespect to anyone, and this is not a confrontational post. As you can clearly see by how many post's I've made I'm new to this forum. I'm equally new to martial arts, just a few years. However, I'm not new to the term "warrior". I've been enlisted in the U S military for 15 years, and I take some offence to the standards and terms that the word "warrior" is used in these days.

I've heard the term warrior used to describe everyone from professional football players to UFC fighters.

If you can't understand how someone could take offense to the flagrant use of a simple word, I'd ask that you simply turn on the news any day of the week these days.

We train in martial arts for many reasons, however, in modern days (as in the present) very few people train in Karate (I'm using Karate as an example because this is the Karate board) so they can use it in the true sense of the word "warrior".

I'm not trying to take away from the years of dedicated training, sweat, blood, and sheer exhaustion that anyone has given to the furthing of marital arts (especially since I love Karate!), but please don't take away from those that have given their lives, and/or limbs for nothing more than the citizens of their countries or clans. The word/term Warrior belongs to them.

On another note, I whole heartedly agree with your ethos on traditional martial arts, and want nothing more than to learn the true history and practice of true Okinawan Karate.

Thank you.

very good post Rick,

Not everyone has the same passion for MA and as it has been discussed this is evident by witnessing students being afraid to spar to them just not showing up for extended periods or just missing once a week. Many have real obligations and maybe not so understanding wives, husbands etc. My entire family does it so we are an exception. We don't live and breathe it as my husband has taught for 16 years. There are many different arts for people and their interests. The women who have interest in our class but are afraid of sparring would probably be happier in a gym type class where you work out with a bag that won't hit back. Tai Chi is another good example of an art for people who don't enjoy fighting. We can all still do MA , regardless of the art the dedication and time will show in the person when they test. I do believe self defense is an important aspect for MA especially for women regarding rape. There are Mcdojos and there are well run commercial MA establishments. We have Apollos Karate in Tulsa and he has several different programs that don''t match up with ours but we respect him totally as a martial artist.

[ff100]

I absoulutely agree with every point made.

One thing that springs to mind is that is that maybe the students dont know they are training in a McDojo. How would they be able to gauge the skill level as all the students they train with are doing it also.

I suppose they wont realise until they need to call upon the skills.

Just a thought.

[TigerDude]

I think there are just too many people teaching self defence arts out there who have never been in a fight. Its rediculous if you think about it.

Who are all these adults who get into fights? I haven't been in a fight since I was 14 & do not expect to ever get in one. If you mean sparring, I agree. But actual fighting is not an experience that people need (nor should they desire) to have.