chinese martial art in ufc

[bushido_man96]

If I remember right, Don "The Dragon" Wilson was a Chinese stylist (kung fu of some kind?) that was a very successful kickboxer. It all has to do with the training. He adapted his technique to take it to the ring with him.

He was also very cocky when he was asked about the possibility of fighting in the cage during one of the early UFC's. When asked, he said "man, I would kill those guys" to which one of the other commentators said "get real Don, those guys would eat you alive."

I had never heard that before. However, I was just trying to make the point that if the CMA trains properly, then they can transfer the knowledge of their style to a different venue, like kickboxing. All he needed to do then was start working on his ground game to get rounded enough to enter a UFC.

Its just too bad for all of the CMAs out there that he was too arrogant to give it a shot.

[elbows_and_knees]

There are Sifus out there that will fight if challenged.

no doubt. there are several. chang tung sheng, wong fei hung, chan tai san, su lu tang, mas oyama... But in general, you will find more that won't than those that will.

I don't know anything about throat ripping & our style places a heavy emphasis on tiger claw training.

exactly. So you see where we are coming from regarding unproven claims.

How one 'tests' oneself can only be determined by the individual. There is no right or wrong answer.

I think there is a wrong answer. san da, muay thai, mma, full contact kickboxing,bjj, judo etc. are all great. If you are "testing yourself" by entering point sparring competitions or by sparring in class, you may be fooling yourself.

[Traditional-Fist]

To draw a comparison, there is also grappling in Muay Thai when you take into account that they're allowed to clinch up at the neck and throw knees. When a muay thai fighter fights someone who's a superior grappler than they are, the muay thai fighters knees are almost never seen. This is because the setup is more important that the attack, and since the other fighter is so much more skilled from the clinch, the muay thai fighter is never able to attain a dominant clinch with which to utilize his knees. So against another striker whos not trained in clinch work, it could possibly work- against someone else who knows what to do from there, its very unlikely.

Wing Chun kung fu grappling, at least in the lineage that I practise, HAS ground fighting and grappling. There are other kung fu styles such as the Praying Mantis (Northern) that have such grappling. Kung fu has been developing for thousands of years. It is illogical to think that the masters who developed and improved kung fu through the centuries did not consider grappling or groundfighting scenarios.

E&K said it all about how big amateur fighting is, and not only that but take into account all the tournaments helds by all martial arts. As far as professional fighters are concerned, they barely make money at all. King of the Cage is probably the largest NHB tournament in the US after the UFC. Typical pay for fighters in those events runs about $300- $500 a fight. Championship belt holders can make as much as $4000, which is quite pathetic.

It is still money. Lets make it free and not charge the public any entrance money. Also, don´t forget that some of these fighters are themselves instructors themselves or at least belong to some schools that have a lot to gain FINANCIALLY if their fighter wins. that is they gain.students,publicity etc.

Those that are humble often times just choose to be so. What will often times frustrate both the humble and the arrogant of those fighters is listening to those who can claim expertise over them when they've had almost no fighting experience whatsoever and are unwilling to back up their claims.

Based on my own martial arts experience of martial arts and life in general, those who have proven themselves never need the feel to be arrogant and tend to be humble, unless they psychological issues to resolve.

Also, people who choose to participate in sport activities should at least learn the art of sportmanship. It is not too much to ask.

Bear in mind that Im not saying that you or your sifu arent skilled or that you may fall into this category, but I hear that all the time- people who have the "real" kung fu. The problem I have with such things is, once again, people are unwilling to back up their statements (using excuses such as honor, loyalty, deadliness, etc.) and beyond their talk have no evidence with which to support their claims (except for loyal practitioners). No amount of belief makes something a fact.

Here is a fact. Real kung fu does exist so does Mc Kung Fu, (majority of schools, unfortunately). What I am curious about is which type of kung fu are you using as a reference in this discussion? What is your experience of real kung fu? For how long?

Well, thats because we've actually seen bullets kill people, so there is evidence to support that. Once again, to draw on another analogy, there are breaking competitions all the time showing people crashing through many blocks of concrete and brick, something a pro boxer couldnt probably do, yet the pro boxer will still ko more people.

I have come across a news story where a man (a karate practioner) killed another with a karate chop to the throat. You don´t have to stretch your imagination very far to see that a tiger claw attack will have the same effect. Admitedly there are more people who are proficient in karata then there are who are proficient in Tiger Claw kung fu. That is not my fault , but that is what the system is all about, where the bottom line is to kill your adversary, not to win medals.

Chi has never been scientifically proven and is therefore not presentable as evidence.

It has not been proven to exist by "western science" that has achieved great hights in helping human kind, but unfortunately it is the same science. whose experiments have "proven" that Fluoride is a safe substance to have in our drinking water; that Aspartame is a safe food additive; that countless other poisons that enter food chain are safe.

What I am saying here is that it is unwise for one to make western science as the beginning and end of all things.

Furthermore, chinese sciense accepts the existance of chi. Who is wrong?

Edited September 30, 2006 by Traditional-Fist

[Traditional-Fist]

they won't do a lot of things, which is why there is so much controvery about "real" kung fu today. Nobody really knows what is real anymore. regardless, I can't even think of any legends I've heard of involving a throat being completely ripped out...

If nobody doesn´t know what is real anymore, it is because kung fu has been turned into a fast food enterprise.

If you don´t believe that there are kung fu masters who can tear your throat then lets give another example, where a kung fu master claws the wind pipe and snaps it. The point is that the end result is the same: a dead adversary. Such techniques are and will never be allowed (thank god) in UFC style competitions.

TMA who compete have the same opportunity. a boxer avoids fighting on the street as well. testing yourself regularly though, is a different animal, and a missing component from some tma.

There are many masters, both kung fu and karate, who have never "competed". Traditionally, people who had doubts about any master´s ability (or their own), went ahead and challenged them. This happens even today.

[Traditional-Fist]

no doubt. there are several. chang tung sheng, wong fei hung, chan tai san, su lu tang, mas oyama... But in general, you will find more that won't than those that will.

That statement might hold true for kick boxers and grapplers as well. How many would participate in a REAL no holds barred fight if challenged by another martial artist that they had never met and outside of a formal event?

BTW. Both of my sifus have accepted challenges and have had great success against other stylists including kickboxers and one "not so friendly" match against a Bjj-er. There are other sifus/masters who do the same, they just don´t go around waiving their fists about, etc.

Here is another fact, many chinese gangsters are proficient in kung fu and as some here will know, they use their skills serious and even life or death encounters.

I think there is a wrong answer. san da, muay thai, mma, full contact kickboxing,bjj, judo etc. are all great. If you are "testing yourself" by entering point sparring competitions or by sparring in class, you may be fooling yourself.

My sifus and their advanced students are proficient fighters and they have not entered competitions and have not won one medal between them and they are proficient fighters. Couple of them were evem involved when one of my sifus was challenged (attacked) by multiple adversaries. Modern and Traditional martial arts "live" in a different reality at one level at least, that is the training methods/concepts of one is difficult to understand by practioners of other and vice versa.

[elbows_and_knees]

If nobody doesn´t know what is real anymore, it is because kung fu has been turned into a fast food enterprise.

sure. And shrouding everything in mysticism and secrecy only helps to propogate that even more.

If you don´t believe that there are kung fu masters who can tear your throat then lets give another example, where a kung fu master claws the wind pipe and snaps it. The point is that the end result is the same: a dead adversary. Such techniques are and will never be allowed (thank god) in UFC style competitions.

I can't arm bar someone and fully break their arm, either. It's about adaptation. on the street, you can't just snap a drunk's windpipe because he grabs you. You have to adapt.

There are many masters, both kung fu and karate, who have never "competed". Traditionally, people who had doubts about any master´s ability (or their own), went ahead and challenged them. This happens even today.

I wasn't referring to competition. There are masters who have never had a street fight or a challenge. Master is a title that is bestowed upon them - and not necessarily because of fighting expertise. Challenges to happen today, but are a rarity.

[elbows_and_knees]

That statement might hold true for kick boxers and grapplers as well. How many would participate in a REAL no holds barred fight if challenged by another martial artist that they had never met and outside of a formal event?

I think you'd be surprised. in the original vale tudo matches, there really were virtually no rules. The early UFC were similar. even if UFC fined you, the fight would continue, you wouldn't get DQed.

Here is another fact, many chinese gangsters are proficient in kung fu and as some here will know, they use their skills serious and even life or death encounters.

one of my sigung's used to. we're not saying kung fu can't be used effectively.

My sifus and their advanced students are proficient fighters and they have not entered competitions and have not won one medal between them and they are proficient fighters. Couple of them were evem involved when one of my sifus was challenged (attacked) by multiple adversaries. Modern and Traditional martial arts "live" in a different reality at one level at least, that is the training methods/concepts of one is difficult to understand by practioners of other and vice versa.

not referring to the people you are referring to, but a lot of people think they are proficient. They think so until they find out otherwise. The sad thing is that due to lack of things like competitions or heck, challenges, many don't realize that.

[HG]

If nobody doesn´t know what is real anymore, it is because kung fu has been turned into a fast food enterprise.

If you don´t believe that there are kung fu masters who can tear your throat then lets give another example, where a kung fu master claws the wind pipe and snaps it. The point is that the end result is the same: a dead adversary. Such techniques are and will never be allowed (thank god) in UFC style competitions.

We call this seizing/stealing the breath. Real nasty stuff.

[HG]

sure. And shrouding everything in mysticism and secrecy only helps to propogate that even more.

Yes, there are schools like that but not all of them hide behind the shroud of Chinese mysticism. Kung fu is so intertwined with Chinese culture, poetic names for techniques & secret skills will never go away, it's what makes Kung fu....Kung fu.

I can't arm bar someone and fully break their arm, either. It's about adaptation. on the street, you can't just snap a drunk's windpipe because he grabs you.

You control the art not the other way around. Basic fight skills should be enough for most situations. If it's needed, lethal techniques are readily available provided proper training & corresponding intent.

You need to adapt.

The CMA have adapted due to the Buddhist/Taoist influence on principles & philosophy. Another factor to be considered is the legal ramifications.

[Traditional-Fist]

I think you'd be surprised.

I think I would as well.

in the original vale tudo matches, there really were virtually no rules. The early UFC were similar. even if UFC fined you, the fight would continue, you wouldn't get DQed.

But that wasn´t my point. Also, you would probably get disqualified if you tiger clawed your opponents throat and killed him instantely. Luckily for everyone involved, there doesn´t seem to be any danger of anyone with such skills entering the UfCs.

not referring to the people you are referring to, but a lot of people think they are proficient. They think so until they find out otherwise. The sad thing is that due to lack of things like competitions or heck, challenges, many don't realize that.

You don´t need competitions to be a good fighter and initially anyway, you don´t learn to fight challenges by fighting challenges. There is a different methodology to traditional chinese martial arts training. Yes, real fighting does come into it, but usually in a different way.