Bruce Lee in the UFC

[UseoForce]

Bruce was still pretty small though wasn't he?

Most MMA wear gloves too, so his punches wouldn't be as effective..

In his weight division he'd be competitive though..

Bruce could punch through a wall, his punches were so good. I don't think the gloves would hurt him much.

lol at punches being affected by MMA gloves. Watch some UFC fights, you may want to rethink that.

[bushido_man96]

Yep. Strikers have very good success in the MMA.

[alsey]

the following UFC rules put a traditional martial artist like bruce at a disadvantage:

no eye gouging

no fish hooking

no groin attacks

no small joint manipulation

no striking to the spine or the back of the head

no striking using the point of the elbow

no throat strikes

no grabbing the clavicle

no kicking, stamping or kneeing a grounded opponent's head

no heel kicks to the kidney

these are all vital parts of traditional martial arts.

i think if bruce fought UFC his opponent would be declared winner, but probably posthumously.

[UseoForce]

the following UFC rules put a traditional martial artist like bruce at a disadvantage:

no eye gouging

no fish hooking

no groin attacks

no small joint manipulation

no striking to the spine or the back of the head

no striking using the point of the elbow

no throat strikes

no grabbing the clavicle

no kicking, stamping or kneeing a grounded opponent's head

no heel kicks to the kidney

these are all vital parts of traditional martial arts.

i think if bruce fought UFC his opponent would be declared winner, but probably posthumously.

This has been debated many times and has proven to be incorrect. I would suspect your lack of faith in MMA comes from inexperience in MMA training, and you probably haven't watched very many fights. That's okay. A lot of people start out that way. I did. But I learned

Even when these rules did not exist, traditionalists did not fare well in early UFC or Brazilian Vale Tudo. The early UFC's only banned gouging and biting, and vale tudo often had no rules.

It has nothing to do with these "vital points." Traditional arts would (and do) do great in the UFC if they adopt modern, hardcore physical training methods (limited rules heavy-contact sparring and grappling). Think about it: Kickboxing contains the techniques of many traditional martial arts, but it remains highly effective in the Octagon because of its rigorous training methods.

The same basic principle applies to boxing, Thai boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Judo, and Sambo. These arts are all effective in the Octagon because of their tough training methods.

This is the paradox of martial arts few people understand. The effectiveness of a martial art in combat is not determined by its techniques, but rather by it's training methods. It doesn't matter if I know 1000 ultra-deadly techniques. If I can't apply them against a resisting opponent under pressure, they are useless. The only way to be sure of your ability to apply these techniques is to practice them against an actively resisting opponent.

This does not mean that vital point strikes are useless, but their effectiveness and decisiveness is highly exaggerated. I been hit in the groin, bit, and eye gouged while sparring and have yet to be debilitated by any of these.

Furthermore, a grappler (wrestler, BJJ player, judoka) used to fighting with an actively resisting opponent will be able to put himself into a position where he is invulnerable to most of these foul techniques while being able to apply them to his opponent at ease.

By the way, Bruce Lee was the antithesis of a traditionalist. He believed as I believe. Read the Tao of JKD. In his 16 Facts of JKD:

"9. All-out sparring and actual contact training on moving targets."

[ps1]

This is really hard to say. From what I've heard (and we all know how much that can be worth) Bruce Lee was not the kind to turn down a challenge of his skill. However, he would have to learn some take down defense and more ground work before going in UFC. Otherwise he's on his back and in trouble. I do think that if he was around now, he would have quickly began to learn BJJ and practice takedown defense as soon as he heard of it. He practiced hard and had alot of drive. He probably would have done ok.

[bushido_man96]

You make a good point ps1, however, Bruce did have some work in ground fighting. I believe he worked with Gene LeBelle for a time, if my memory serves me correctly. Although it was not extensively, they did work together, and if he was in this environment now, he not only would have begun ground training, he probably would have been doing it before everyone else.

[alsey]

UseoForce, i admit i have never trained in MMA, but i have watched a fair bit of UFC, though that has all been in the last two or three years.

i may have seen and experienced little of MMA compared to you or someone actually into it, but i have seen situations in UFC where one fighter has had the advantage and could have finished the fight there and then should he have been allowed to use one of the banned methods, but instead the fighter is forced to mount the opponent and grapple to get the victory.

i do however get what you're saying (and agree with most of it) and i'll have to look into older MMA competitions.

i do not believe realistic combat training to be non-traditional. quite the opposite. by traditional i essentially mean one of the older arts, and arts where the ring environment was not considered. for example, modern karate would not fall under this definition of traditional.

the reason i think bruce would be so disadvantaged is not because he has had inadequate training, but because the methods he has trained in greatly utilise things which are banned in UFC. modern MMA however seems to be based on things which are allowed in UFC (as far as i know, and in all honesty i don't know much about modern MMA so correct me if i'm wrong).

to win in UFC or any professional sport you have to be extremely good at the specific things demanded by the sport. bruce did not spend his life training to beat people in the octagon, while those who fight in UFC do so they have a huge advantage. i think in a random fight in a bar or something, bruce would hold the advantage because he trained to fight in realistic combat situations.

while training methods are extremely importand as you explained, so is the target of your training. an MMA fighter will be good in an octagon, a samurai will be good on a medieval battlefield for example.

[UseoForce]

UseoForce, i admit i have never trained in MMA, but i have watched a fair bit of UFC, though that has all been in the last two or three years.

i may have seen and experienced little of MMA compared to you or someone actually into it, but i have seen situations in UFC where one fighter has had the advantage and could have finished the fight there and then should he have been allowed to use one of the banned methods, but instead the fighter is forced to mount the opponent and grapple to get the victory.

i do however get what you're saying (and agree with most of it) and i'll have to look into older MMA competitions.

i do not believe realistic combat training to be non-traditional. quite the opposite. by traditional i essentially mean one of the older arts, and arts where the ring environment was not considered. for example, modern karate would not fall under this definition of traditional.

the reason i think bruce would be so disadvantaged is not because he has had inadequate training, but because the methods he has trained in greatly utilise things which are banned in UFC. modern MMA however seems to be based on things which are allowed in UFC (as far as i know, and in all honesty i don't know much about modern MMA so correct me if i'm wrong).

to win in UFC or any professional sport you have to be extremely good at the specific things demanded by the sport. bruce did not spend his life training to beat people in the octagon, while those who fight in UFC do so they have a huge advantage. i think in a random fight in a bar or something, bruce would hold the advantage because he trained to fight in realistic combat situations.

while training methods are extremely importand as you explained, so is the target of your training. an MMA fighter will be good in an octagon, a samurai will be good on a medieval battlefield for example.

But a samurai who used modern training methods would be better than the other samurai.

Case and point: Kano's judo defeated jiu-jitsu in countless challenges. Why? The training methods.

I'd also like to add that MMA fighters win street fights all the time. Do a few internet searches, see for yourself.

I'm not saying Bruce would have won or lost, I'm saying the logic you used to get to your initial conclusion was flawed.

[alsey]

But a samurai who used modern training methods would be better than the other samurai.

of course, modern training methods have the benefit of a better knowledge of medicine, nutrition, psychology etc and better technology (even in things as simple as a punch bag). but the samurai still trained in as realistic a way as possible, i.e. limited rules sparring and grappling.

Case and point: Kano's judo defeated jiu-jitsu in countless challenges. Why? The training methods.

on a battlefield? i doubt it.

all well trained fighters have an advantage in street fights, but not all well trained fighters have an advantage against other well trained fighters.

i guess all i'm saying is that for bruce to step into the octagon is just trying to beat the MMA guy at his own game. the UFC fighter's occupation is to be good at fighting in the octagon, so he has a huge advantage over someone like bruce lee.

if an MMA fighter found himself on a medieval battlefield (hypothetical of course), i'm pretty sure he'd die rather soon. he'd end up on the ground and get a spear through his back or something. i'm just trying to say that MMA is very good at what its meant for, and so were bruce lee's skills. i'm not saying one is better than the other overall or even in a street fight situation, but i do think MMA is better in the octagon situation.

i also accept your point that its not all about vital areas and banned techniques, there is more to it than that. when i said that bruce lee would kill the guy in the octagon, i wasn't serious and probably i was wrong.

[bushido_man96]

alsey, you talk a lot about Bruce Lee's training methods, and how he focused on actual combat situations. However, his combat methods would translate very nicely into the ring. He did heavy bag work. He practiced kicking and striking. He trained with the likes of Bob Wall, Chuck Norris, and Gene Lebelle. He was kind of a pioneer of his time, cross training and learning from others. Bruce would probably have liked the challenge that the octagon presents, because it the closest that we can come to having a sporting event that envelopes most of the situations that you will see in real fighting.

Yes, there are some rules, because after all, it is a sport. But you cannot discount the effectiveness of MMA fighters abilities on the street, either. Their toughness and superior training and conditioning would make them very formidable on the street. And I feel that, as fighters, they would be able to adapt to the street fight very well. They do leg kicks; lower it a few inches, and you get the knee. They jab to the face; open your fingers, and you get an eye-gouge. These are all simple transitions.

As far as the medieval battle field comparison goes, you are comparing a weaponless combat to weapons combat, which is a WHOLE other world of fighting and training in and of itself, so that is really not a fair comparison, in my opinion.