Chinese kiai?

[bushido_man96]

This could very well be the case. As we all know, Bruce Lee was not one to fixate to a style....he liked to do things his own way. I don't have any personal experience with Chinese styles, other than what I read.

This leads to an another interesting issue, and that is, wether what Bruce Lee actually practised in his final years, was really kung fu, or was it something that was influenced (perhaps largly) by kung fu, amongst other things, and hence lacked the essence of what kungfu really is (We must remember that Bruce Lee never mastered any given style of kung fu, not even Wing Chun).

This in turn leads to the question of wether we can use Bruce Lee as a reference anytime there is a discussion about kung fu.

Whether Bruce Lee was said to have 'mastered' any form of Kung Fu isn't all that relevant...he was not a big fan of styles anyways. However, the mark he left on the martial arts is significant.

[RealWingChun]

Whether Bruce Lee was said to have 'mastered' any form of Kung Fu isn't all that relevant...he was not a big fan of styles anyways. However, the mark he left on the martial arts is significant.

He was not a fan of styles. But it is always a good idea for one to MASTER a style first; possess an essence of that style; and UNDERSTAND that particular style, before one goes about "improving" it.

In Bruce Lee's case he came up with some interesting ideas, notions and philosophies, some, if not most of which had already existed in kung fu.

Credit must be given to him as his philosophy and training concepts worked for him. He could even be considered a martial arts (not kung fu) genius. One does however wonder wether he wouldn't have been as a good fighter had he not practised/trained in any of the traditional or not traditional fighting arts, training as fanatically as he did in his Jeet Kune Do.

There is no denying the mark that he has left on the martial arts. The mark has both positive and negative sides to it, but I prefer to see the glass half full rather than half empty, even though sometimes that is difficult.

Edited January 2, 2007 by RealWingChun

[bushido_man96]

Whether Bruce Lee was said to have 'mastered' any form of Kung Fu isn't all that relevant...he was not a big fan of styles anyways. However, the mark he left on the martial arts is significant.

He was not a fan of styles. But it is always a good idea for one to MASTER a style first; possess an essence of that style; and UNDERSTAND that particular style, before one goes about "improving" it.

I don't think that Bruce Lee 'imporved' on Wing Chun, or any other style, for that matter. He did take what worked for him, drilled it, and used it. That is what fighting is about. You have to be efficient and effective, and that is what he did.

I wouldn't know for sure, but I think he started Wing Chun as a child. Therefore, he probably had plenty of experience to go on.

One does however wonder wether he wouldn't have been as a good fighter had he not practised/trained in any of the traditional or not traditional fighting arts, training as fanatically has he did in his Jeet Kune Do.

It doesn't really matter. He did what he did, and it worked for him. That is all that matters for any martial artist, I think.

[RealWingChun]

I don't think that Bruce Lee 'imporved' on Wing Chun, or any other style, for that matter.

He certainly did not improve on Wing Chun.

He did take what worked for him, drilled it, and used it. That is what fighting is about. You have to be efficient and effective, and that is what he did.

I agree with you there. That is funny though. That is what many kung fu (and traditional karate )masters will tell you as well. That is, learn your style, drill it, etc. Then take what is useful for you as a person and use it efficiently and hence effectively.

I wouldn't know for sure, but I think he started Wing Chun as a child. Therefore, he probably had plenty of experience to go on.

It is common knowledge that Bruce Lee did not complete Yip Man's the Wing Chun system when he left for the States. Some people will even say that Yip Man's system was not complete in itself either, but that is another discussion. Anyway, it seems that he may have been half way through the system, but I am not sure about this.

All I know is that he did not complete the system and that he had quiet a way to go to do so.

One does however wonder wether he wouldn't have been as a good fighter had he not practised/trained in any of the traditional or not traditional fighting arts, training as fanatically has he did in his Jeet Kune Do.

It doesn't really matter. He did what he did, and it worked for him. That is all that matters for any martial artist, I think.

What I am saying here, is that maybe if he had used his incredible and tireless training routine in the practise of any other martial art, lets say Kyokushinkai, that he would still be an incredible fighter.

[bushido_man96]

Maybe so, but he didn't choose to take that route. What we do know is that he was fast, trained hard, and there are a lot of stories out there floating around.

[RealWingChun]

Maybe so, but he didn't choose to take that route. What we do know is that he was fast, trained hard, and there are a lot of stories out there floating around.

Agreed. But the fact that he did not complete Wing Chun, let alone master it is not a story. However, that does not take anything away from Bruce Lee, as far as him being an exceptional martial artist is concerned.

As we have agreed, he was good at what he did. And part of why he was good was because he trained extremely hard.

[bushido_man96]

Maybe so, but he didn't choose to take that route. What we do know is that he was fast, trained hard, and there are a lot of stories out there floating around.

Agreed. But the fact that he did not complete Wing Chun, let alone master it is not a story. However, that does not take anything away from Bruce Lee, as far as him being an exceptional martial artist is concerned.

I don't think that he ever claimed that he did master Wing Chun, nor any other style, for that matter. He was know to be somewhat arrogant, but not so much that he diluted himself into thinking something such as that.

I do believe that he probably spent enough time in Wing Chun to figure out what he did/did not like, and was able to tailor his own training thus.

As we have agreed, he was good at what he did. And part of why he was good was because he trained extremely hard.

I agree with this point. He was obsessive/fanatical about his training, and his physical condition as well.

[HG]

Some people will even say that Yip Man's system was not complete in itself either, but that is another discussion.

Interesting, please elaborate further on this.

[mantis.style]

Not entirely the same but regarding a chinese form of kiai: iron thread anyone?

The problem with trying to discuss Yip Man's wing chun is that there are great differences in what he taught depending on what you were like and when in his teaching career you were taught by him. However, with this said it is known that mostly, what changed was the wording of some elements of the teaching that in no way changed the training. Some things were omitted depending on the individual and some other things were emphasised depending on the individual. Of course, it is also well known that whether or not he actually taught you is a different matter which doesn't help because as a result of this, it is unclear who actually knows the complete Yip Man wing chun. It is interesting to note that one of the most favoured students of his and the person unofficially recognised to be his successor was a person who was skilled in more than one lineage of wing chun.

There is also the question of what you mean by complete?

[bushido_man96]

I don't think that Bruce Lee 'imporved' on Wing Chun, or any other style, for that matter.

He certainly did not improve on Wing Chun.

I don't think that this is what he sat out to do, though. I think he just wanted to take the things that worked well, and then add things from other people he trained with, and went from there. He was the epitome of self-improvement.