throws and ground work in shotokan?

[elbows_and_knees]

the thing is, kata will teach you the basic ne waza you find in judo and BJJ. if you train in these basics properly, then you will be able to use them in a fight. however, BJJ and judo contain a lot more than basic ne waza, and hence a kata trained karateka will have a tough time fighting a judoka or BJJ practitioner on the ground.

position over submission - grappling is all about establinshing a dominant position on the ground. I REALLY want you are anyone else here to show me how karate teaches you proper technique for a mount, side mount, north - south, gesa gatame or anything else, and how it teaches you to transition between those. THAT is grappling on it's most basic level (and it's most important), not arm bars.

[shotokanwarrior]

While a grappler is positioning himself a true karate ka ( not a Mc black belt) will be bitting, eye gouge, groin, and small joints. Now before all you say these dont work consider that a true Karete ka is fighting for self presurvation. A bite = a chunk of bloody meat being ripped out of a leg or neck. groin= pulled , smashed, twisted, poped, shreaded. eyes= digging in and poping the eye out. these techniques are done instantly if the fight goes to the ground but I do believe that you fight how you train and if trained right Karate is a great self defense Art.

I remember the first day in BJJ class, I was being owned by a blue belt, until I put on a wrist lock, I founf out they werent allowed but it worked and I was also very aware of all the targets available to me.

So it the trainning. I am trained so that if I am being taken down and cound not avoid it, my fingers wrap around the head and the thumbs are going in the eyes.

[ps1]

While a grappler is positioning himself a true karate ka ( not a Mc black belt) will be bitting, eye gouge, groin, and small joints. Now before all you say these dont work consider that a true Karete ka is fighting for self presurvation. A bite = a chunk of bloody meat being ripped out of a leg or neck. groin= pulled , smashed, twisted, poped, shreaded. eyes= digging in and poping the eye out. these techniques are done instantly if the fight goes to the ground but I do believe that you fight how you train and if trained right Karate is a great self defense Art.

I remember the first day in BJJ class, I was being owned by a blue belt, until I put on a wrist lock, I founf out they werent allowed but it worked and I was also very aware of all the targets available to me.

So it the trainning. I am trained so that if I am being taken down and cound not avoid it, my fingers wrap around the head and the thumbs are going in the eyes.

While I agree that someone who knows little about the ground should attempt to bite, claw ect... However, let me first point out that a blue belt represents only about 1-2 years of training. Additionally, we have methods to deal with people who bite (or attempt to) such as moving to the across side position. From this position pressure can be applied such that the head is effectively immobilized. Reaching of any kind (be it for the groin or otherwise) usually ends up in nasty consequences. Small joint maneuvers (wrist locks and whatnot) are effective, as you pointed out, but we practice them also.

I'm not saying what you propose is not correct, I have practiced Shotokan for some time. I believe karate has very effective self defense techniques, not to mention the amazing tradition and cultural lessons it tells. However, elbows_and_knees is exactly correct that ground fighting is all about position. Once you get into the proper position, you can beat anyone. Shotokanwarrior, you make the same assertions that people, myself included, did during the first few UFCs (the only things outlawed were biting and eye gouging). The grapplers dominated because they got into the most superior positions.

That said...

Karate does, as Alsey wrote, teach the nage waza (throws) and kensetsu waza (joint manipulations) and Shime waza (chokes & strangulations), but does not, as elbows_and_knees pointed out, it does not teach how to gain the most dominant position on the ground. There are several plausible reasons for this. I submit the following possibilities for dispute:

1. Those who had developed the kata had never ended up in a less dominant position and, therefore, never considered the possibility. The techniques in the kata were enough for them to appropriately dispatch their opponent.

2. The techniques in the kata are set up to place you in the dominant position to begin with. Most of the nage waza allow a person to perform a take down and end with a joint manipulation or strong strike.

3. Some of the more ancient techniques are based on battlefield combat. Staying on the ground was not a good idea when weapons were in use. Plus their armor made ground combat a little cumbersome. So they were always trying to utilize techniques that avoided having to go to the ground to begin with. Grappling was a last resort, just like today's combat situations.

Please do not think I'm saying the above are historical fact. Just possibilities I came up with off the top of my head. But, none the less, karate kata do contain many grappling techniques.

[bushido_man96]

While a grappler is positioning himself a true karate ka ( not a Mc black belt) will be bitting, eye gouge, groin, and small joints. Now before all you say these dont work consider that a true Karete ka is fighting for self presurvation. A bite = a chunk of bloody meat being ripped out of a leg or neck. groin= pulled , smashed, twisted, poped, shreaded. eyes= digging in and poping the eye out. these techniques are done instantly if the fight goes to the ground but I do believe that you fight how you train and if trained right Karate is a great self defense Art.

I remember the first day in BJJ class, I was being owned by a blue belt, until I put on a wrist lock, I founf out they werent allowed but it worked and I was also very aware of all the targets available to me.

So it the trainning. I am trained so that if I am being taken down and cound not avoid it, my fingers wrap around the head and the thumbs are going in the eyes.

While I agree that someone who knows little about the ground should attempt to bite, claw ect... However, let me first point out that a blue belt represents only about 1-2 years of training. Additionally, we have methods to deal with people who bite (or attempt to) such as moving to the across side position. From this position pressure can be applied such that the head is effectively immobilized. Reaching of any kind (be it for the groin or otherwise) usually ends up in nasty consequences. Small joint maneuvers (wrist locks and whatnot) are effective, as you pointed out, but we practice them also.

I'm not saying what you propose is not correct, I have practiced Shotokan for some time. I believe karate has very effective self defense techniques, not to mention the amazing tradition and cultural lessons it tells. However, elbows_and_knees is exactly correct that ground fighting is all about position. Once you get into the proper position, you can beat anyone. Shotokanwarrior, you make the same assertions that people, myself included, did during the first few UFCs (the only things outlawed were biting and eye gouging). The grapplers dominated because they got into the most superior positions.

That said...

Karate does, as Alsey wrote, teach the nage waza (throws) and kensetsu waza (joint manipulations) and Shime waza (chokes & strangulations), but does not, as elbows_and_knees pointed out, it does not teach how to gain the most dominant position on the ground. There are several plausible reasons for this. I submit the following possibilities for dispute:

1. Those who had developed the kata had never ended up in a less dominant position and, therefore, never considered the possibility. The techniques in the kata were enough for them to appropriately dispatch their opponent.

2. The techniques in the kata are set up to place you in the dominant position to begin with. Most of the nage waza allow a person to perform a take down and end with a joint manipulation or strong strike.

3. Some of the more ancient techniques are based on battlefield combat. Staying on the ground was not a good idea when weapons were in use. Plus their armor made ground combat a little cumbersome. So they were always trying to utilize techniques that avoided having to go to the ground to begin with. Grappling was a last resort, just like today's combat situations.

Please do not think I'm saying the above are historical fact. Just possibilities I came up with off the top of my head. But, none the less, karate kata do contain many grappling techniques.

These are very good points that you make here. I, too, feel that the groundfighting we know of today is more rooted in earlier sport wrestling like that which was practiced in ancient Greece. It was not heavily trained due to the weapons fighting that was used in combat. If they came in close, disarms or arm locks were utilized, or maybe a trip/throw (i.e., stand up JJJ). But going to the ground was a bad idea.

The true basis of today's groundfighting probably originated with Jigoro Kano and his theories and techniques for practicing judo. You could also relate it to the roots of folk/high school wrestling.

[elbows_and_knees]

While a grappler is positioning himself a true karate ka ( not a Mc black belt) will be bitting, eye gouge, groin, and small joints. Now before all you say these dont work consider that a true Karete ka is fighting for self presurvation. A bite = a chunk of bloody meat being ripped out of a leg or neck. groin= pulled , smashed, twisted, poped, shreaded. eyes= digging in and poping the eye out. these techniques are done instantly if the fight goes to the ground but I do believe that you fight how you train and if trained right Karate is a great self defense Art.

I remember the first day in BJJ class, I was being owned by a blue belt, until I put on a wrist lock, I founf out they werent allowed but it worked and I was also very aware of all the targets available to me.

So it the trainning. I am trained so that if I am being taken down and cound not avoid it, my fingers wrap around the head and the thumbs are going in the eyes.

Have you ever bitten someone in a grappling situation? I have been bitten. It ticked me off and I made the lock tighter. Also, think about it - when Something sudden happens, what is the natural human reaction? to tense up. If I have you in an armbar and you bite me and I tense up, the arm bar gets tighter...

When you extend the arms to gouge, you generally leave yourself open to get your arm locked.

[Shui Tora]

when Something sudden happens, what is the natural human reaction? to tense up. If I have you in an armbar and you bite me and I tense up, the arm bar gets tighter...

Not all the time. In order to have someone in an arm bar, you'll want to hit a joint (i.e.; elbow) in order to put them in it; however, as they tense (by natural human reaction) up it'll become harder to keep that arm bar in place.

[elbows_and_knees]

when Something sudden happens, what is the natural human reaction? to tense up. If I have you in an armbar and you bite me and I tense up, the arm bar gets tighter...

Not all the time. In order to have someone in an arm bar, you'll want to hit a joint (i.e.; elbow) in order to put them in it; however, as they tense (by natural human reaction) up it'll become harder to keep that arm bar in place.

that's what your body is for. with juji gatame, your legs lay across your opponent, keeping him immobile and his arm in place. his joint rests across your groin. Once you flinch, your hips raise, locking the arm harder.

What type of arm bar are you envisioning?

[Shui Tora]

^ Ah... something completly different to what you are describing...

My bad!

[shotokanbeginner]

I admit I'm not really following this thread much but why does Alsey keep bringing up Samurai into this? Samurai had very little or practically nothing to do with Karate. Legit Karate draws it's roots/lineage to Okinawa. Okinawans weren't really known to be Samurai, they were known to be fishers and farmers. Samurai were typically Japanese, enough said.

If you study an art like Wado Ryu you have some jujutsu in the art, ok...even Konishi's Ryobukai has some aikido/jujutsu qualities in it. All other stles have some newaza bunkai in the kata, sure. Traditional Okinawan bunkai in Karate kata isn't jujutsu.

Kano and Funakoshi were friends, yes...Ueshiba was friends with Funakoshi too...I don't think Aikido is in Shotokan, do you? Some of Funakoshi's senior students trained in other arts. Many of them trained under Mabuni to learn Kata that Funakoshi did not know. Many of them also came from Kendo backgrounds into Shotokan. The simple fact is if

you want to learn good newaza go into BJJ or Judo. Don't rely on your Shotokan training.

Actually, I am not sure, but I think there are some practices in shotokan that were adapted from aikido like ju ippon kumite is similar and some of the throws are kinda more aikido like.

Someone else said that the blocks tuaght in shotokan were unrealistic, unless I mistook there meaning. I agree sort of, I mean you wouldn't go into the stance put your hand exactly here then bring it over here, but the stances are used to teach better conection, for a real fight your teacher, as well as you, should beteaching how to adfapt them into real life situations without the large stance and exact form, in a more natural position.

Finally I'd like to thank everyone for leaving so many comments, I'm having trouble keeping up.

[legkicker]

While a grappler is positioning himself a true karate ka ( not a Mc black belt) will be bitting, eye gouge, groin, and small joints. Now before all you say these dont work consider that a true Karete ka is fighting for self presurvation. A bite = a chunk of bloody meat being ripped out of a leg or neck. groin= pulled , smashed, twisted, poped, shreaded. eyes= digging in and poping the eye out. these techniques are done instantly if the fight goes to the ground but I do believe that you fight how you train and if trained right Karate is a great self defense Art.

I remember the first day in BJJ class, I was being owned by a blue belt, until I put on a wrist lock, I founf out they werent allowed but it worked and I was also very aware of all the targets available to me.

So it the trainning. I am trained so that if I am being taken down and cound not avoid it, my fingers wrap around the head and the thumbs are going in the eyes.

Have you ever bitten someone in a grappling situation? I have been bitten. It ticked me off and I made the lock tighter. Also, think about it - when Something sudden happens, what is the natural human reaction? to tense up. If I have you in an armbar and you bite me and I tense up, the arm bar gets tighter...

When you extend the arms to gouge, you generally leave yourself open to get your arm locked.

The only time I chose to take a fight to the ground the person was fishhooking me while I had him in the mount. I had him in an armbar and he tried to bite his way out and I just started kicking my heel over and over on his face, breaking his nose. From him fishooking I had skin that got ripped off inside my mouth but it definitely wasn't going to "stop" me.

The biting, fishhooking, eyegouging, etc. that you're talking about that a Karateka would do on the ground is something a BJJ person could easily do, too. It's the same thing as crossfacing, neck cranks, etc....You don't need to practice these sort of techniques a lot in randori. REason why.....they don't take much skill and cause needless injury. It's just randori.