throws and ground work in shotokan?

[bushido_man96]

Practicing self-defense is very important, and I think that a lot of schools relegate self-defense to bunkai or one-steps, and then call it good, and move onto the fighting.

Self-defense must be practiced with some form of spontaneity in order to become more proficient at it. This kind of practice can also help to improve adrenale-stress training.

[alsey]

I still don't agree with you. Almost every system of martial arts in practice today have some sort of "sport side" that is trained, along with the kata practice. You talk of fighting with rules, and then compare it to fighting a UFC fighter, who still fights with rules, just a different set.

i compared it to UFC to show that striking on its own isn't adequate when all ranges of combat are permitted.

Now, here's the deal. When you train like this, it is decent training for preparing for a fight. Not the best training, but it is decent. You learn to move, block, counter, and adapt to your opponent's strategies. I get to spar in class with rules. And, I know that if it goes to the street, I can adapt to street fighting, i.e., kick to the legs, strike to the throat or eyes, and otherwise. If you can kick a pro fighter in the groin, or get to his eyes, then you can successfully defend yourself against a skilled opponent.

unless of course combat starts closer than long range striking distance, or your opponent moves in close.

And another thing you may want to consider is to not under-estimate "street thugs." Take Tank Abbot, for example. There are lots of skilled fighters out there, who have never had a lick of training. It is beneficial to never under-estimate anyone.

untrained fighters are still extremely dangerous. however, because they are untrained you don't need to use complicated techniques to defeat them. this doesn't mean that fighting them is necessarily any easier than fighting a trained fighter, it simply means that the methods you will need to use are not as advanced.

[alsey]

Not every martial artisit will know how to defend against the moves... Don't forget that you have different styles. A Tae Kwon Do artist will not know how to defend against the first moves of Heian Nidan as they do not cover it! Everything is different, and that is why you cannot have set defence techniques...

but a TKD artist will not attack me with a wild swinging punch. there will probably be multiple kicks and/or punches combined well, making the attack very difficult to deal with using the principles of heian nidan.

another thing: each kata movement has more than one application. the movement contains principles which can be adapted to several situations. in a fight, you don't stand there and perform the kata movement exactly as it is in the kata. that is an ideal. through training you learn how to adapt the ideal to various situations.

What of Bunkai? The use of Kata is to understand how to use techniques together... Now this may not mean in using the whole kata, but (for example; Heian Nidan) the first three moves can be used effectively IF you understand how they work.

yes, exactly.

It doesn't always come down to using moves... You have to understand how they work, why they work and if they don't; then is there a solution? Katas were designed for training, but also to get you to think Strategy wise as well... At the end of the kata Heian Sandan, the move isn't hitting someone over your shoulder (it could be, but not very effective) as before the Yori-ash, you are striking into someone's arm (when they have a hold on your shirt) and then striking them with the tate-zuki. (Got me? )

or it could be interpreted as a choke. this isn't going off topic. its going back on topic if anything.

[bushido_man96]

quote alsey: unless of course combat starts closer than long range striking distance, or your opponent moves in close.

If combat starts out close, then you are already that much closer to their eyes or other soft targets. Do you remember how close Tyson and Holyfield were when Tyson bit his ear?

quote alsey: untrained fighters are still extremely dangerous. however, because they are untrained you don't need to use complicated techniques to defeat them. this doesn't mean that fighting them is necessarily any easier than fighting a trained fighter, it simply means that the methods you will need to use are not as advanced.

If I have to defend myself against a pro or an untrained fighter, I am going to use simple techniques anyways. Punches, kicks low, maybe a grab or two to twist them up, but nothing that I would view as overly complicated. Keep it simple.

You could view grappling techniques as complex movements. They require a lot of fine motor skill development, and in my opinion, grappling skills require more training to develop than other, more rudimentary fighting skills.

[alsey]

I admit I'm not really following this thread much but why does Alsey keep bringing up Samurai into this? Samurai had very little or practically nothing to do with Karate.

i suggest you read the thread

i started talking about jujitsu and hence the samurai because i misunderstood elbows and knees when he said japanese styles don't contain groundwork. i thought he was talking about jujitsu. but anyway then we got talking about JJJ.

still, the samurai did have quite a bit to do with karate. karate wouldn't exist without the samurai because the samurai did a lot of the enforcing of the 'no weapons rule' in okinawa. karateka fought samurai quite a bit, and the samurai usually won (why? because karate wasn't adequate for dealing with an experienced warrior).

The simple fact is if you want to learn good newaza go into BJJ or Judo. Don't rely on your Shotokan training.

the thing is, kata will teach you the basic ne waza you find in judo and BJJ. if you train in these basics properly, then you will be able to use them in a fight. however, BJJ and judo contain a lot more than basic ne waza, and hence a kata trained karateka will have a tough time fighting a judoka or BJJ practitioner on the ground.

[alsey]

Then why do many karateka get owned in street fights?

many karateka get owned in street fights because they're only trained in long range striking. as soon as the range closes, their advantage is gone.

[alsey]

If I have to defend myself against a pro or an untrained fighter, I am going to use simple techniques anyways. Punches, kicks low, maybe a grab or two to twist them up, but nothing that I would view as overly complicated. Keep it simple.

You could view grappling techniques as complex movements. They require a lot of fine motor skill development, and in my opinion, grappling skills require more training to develop than other, more rudimentary fighting skills.

if you make a low kick against an untrained fighter, you will probably hit them if your techniques is good. if you try the same low kick on its own against a pro, he will most likely avoid it. you have to do something else against a pro: you have to deceive, combine moves etc. that's the difference in technique i'm talking about.

as for grappling, there are different levels of it. with some basic grappling knowledge i can beat most untrained people on the ground. but i won't be able to beat an experienced grappler.

[bushido_man96]

If I have to defend myself against a pro or an untrained fighter, I am going to use simple techniques anyways. Punches, kicks low, maybe a grab or two to twist them up, but nothing that I would view as overly complicated. Keep it simple.

You could view grappling techniques as complex movements. They require a lot of fine motor skill development, and in my opinion, grappling skills require more training to develop than other, more rudimentary fighting skills.

if you make a low kick against an untrained fighter, you will probably hit them if your techniques is good. if you try the same low kick on its own against a pro, he will most likely avoid it. you have to do something else against a pro: you have to deceive, combine moves etc. that's the difference in technique i'm talking about.

as for grappling, there are different levels of it. with some basic grappling knowledge i can beat most untrained people on the ground. but i won't be able to beat an experienced grappler.

Yes, the pro is trained to avoid low kicks....and a lot of other things. But hey, so am I. I just don't get to train 6 hours a day. Now, a pro Thai boxer, he will be able to defend it well. A pro boxer, maybe, maybe not. You have to be able to formulate strategies quickly, to use your strengths and counter their weaknesses, and to hide yours.

I just don't think you want to tell your fellow karate students that if they get attacked by another martial artist that they are in trouble.

[alsey]

i just don't think that karate's grappling methods are adequate for dealing with someone who is trained in a true grappling art. however, the modern karateka is highly capable of fighting anyone at striking range.

[elbows_and_knees]

Then why do many karateka get owned in street fights?

many karateka get owned in street fights because they're only trained in long range striking. as soon as the range closes, their advantage is gone.

Actually, all of the ones I've seen get beat were dropped with haymakers and sloppy attempts at jab / cross combinations. Most fights I've seen stay at punching range, unless they are going to the ground, or attempting something like grabbing their opponent's shirt and pulling it over his head.

Now, if it started from one getting in the other's face, then it stayed at that close range and almost always ended on the ground.