throws and ground work in shotokan?

[Shui Tora]

think there are some practices in shotokan that were adapted from aikido like ju ippon kumite is similar and some of the throws are kinda more aikido like.

Interesting, I have not heard of that theory before... In a way, you can say that is it like that, but do remember that Shotokan was a merging of Shorin-Ryu and Shorei-Ryu; both compeletly different with Aikdio.... But nonetheless, interesting.

Someone else said that the blocks tuaght in shotokan were unrealistic, unless I mistook there meaning. I agree sort of, I mean you wouldn't go into the stance put your hand exactly here then bring it over here, but the stances are used to teach better conection...

Don't misjudge the use of stances....They are there for rooting you (and the opponent) down. There is an arm bar where we use the satnce "Kibi-Dahci" or "IronHorse" stance, and we have the attackers arm across our legs. From this armbar, the back of their arm is open to over 5 different pressure points (including the dangerours one; Heart Meridan) allowing us to physically disable the attacker, and do a lot of damage if intended to do so)...

Not forgetting that we can also put him in to a wist lock form the move too, afterwards.

for a real fight your teacher, as well as you, should beteaching how to adfapt them into real life situations without the large stance and exact form, in a more natural position.

Yes, Shotokan does do that... A move where someone has your wrists behind your back is a real life situtation. Someone coming in with a hook punch and you throw them to the floor, all of them making you step out of the line of attack and then dealing with it. Shotokan is about getting out of the way of attack and then dealing with it.

The use of a large stance is to be able to have your attacker where you want him/her, a stance roots you down, "center of gravity?"... The use of exact form is important, as you wouldn't know what to do but also what is the point of learning it? Once you know what to do, then you can mix and match about, only until you've learnt the basics...

[BJJShotoshe]

well, I have been studying shotokan karate for about six years and shotokan has a lot of ground work and throwing in it. It's all primarily derived from the katas we study, Bunkai. It was origianally developed to keep secret the moves that were interpreted. And by the way, how do you get to the ground most of the time? You have to strike them!

[Jiffy]

It depends on what your definition of "alot" is. Sure, there is heaps of them in there, but if you are comparing to strikes, then I would have to disagree. Shotokan is primarily a striking art, but yes, does have throws and ground work.

[elbows_and_knees]

And by the way, how do you get to the ground most of the time? You have to strike them!

In real fights? usually the two are clinching and one loses balance, or one strikes and loses balance or one tries a takedown.

[elbows_and_knees]

Don't misjudge the use of stances....They are there for rooting you (and the opponent) down. There is an arm bar where we use the satnce "Kibi-Dahci" or "IronHorse" stance, and we have the attackers arm across our legs. From this armbar, the back of their arm is open to over 5 different pressure points (including the dangerours one; Heart Meridan) allowing us to physically disable the attacker, and do a lot of damage if intended to do so)...

you don't have to have a deep stance to be rooted. that's something untrue that many people believe. judoka have an excellent root, and they aren't deep at all. pressure points in general won't help much in an altercation. If you have the guy down and have control of his arm, either snap his arm or kick him in the head, then get out of there.

The use of a large stance is to be able to have your attacker where you want him/her, a stance roots you down, "center of gravity?"... The use of exact form is important, as you wouldn't know what to do but also what is the point of learning it? Once you know what to do, then you can mix and match about, only until you've learnt the basics...

I disagree with this also. see above about root. the same applies for center of gravity. a lower center of gravity can make you somewhat harder to takedown, but generally makes you less mobile as well. lower your center for certain throws, then keep moving. The purpose of stance isn't really root, per se. As I said, judoka have great root, with no stance at all. stance is used for stance disruptions, MOVEMENT and grappling.

stances aren't static - you don't hold them. you transition from one to the other while you are fighting. For example, someone throws a punch, I shift my weight back into a cat stance and block. I then step forward into a bow and arrow stance and lunge punch. He throws a roundhouse at my body and I shift into a back stance then block. He next kicks at my head and I lower into snake creeps down (longfist kung fu) and let it go over my head...transition. that's what stance is about.

As for grappling, after you throw tai otoshi, look at your body - you are in something resembling a bow and arrow stance. o goshi and ippon seionage will leave you in a horse stance. This is how stance has its use in grappling.

the exact form isn't important, as whether your stance is high or low, it's the same stance. When you are transitioning and grappling, the stance will not be exact, but the structure is there. that is what stance is setting in place - your foundation.

[alsey]

stances aren't static - you don't hold them. you transition from one to the other while you are fighting. For example, someone throws a punch, I shift my weight back into a cat stance and block. I then step forward into a bow and arrow stance and lunge punch. He throws a roundhouse at my body and I shift into a back stance then block. He next kicks at my head and I lower into snake creeps down (longfist kung fu) and let it go over my head...transition. that's what stance is about.

As for grappling, after you throw tai otoshi, look at your body - you are in something resembling a bow and arrow stance. o goshi and ippon seionage will leave you in a horse stance. This is how stance has its use in grappling.

well put. you should post that in the stances thread in the karate forum.

[Jiffy]

I agree to a point. I think that stances give us the baseline from which to work. They teach us about balance, centre of gravity and movement. When it comes to an altercation though, much of that will go out the window and the only thing left will be the residue of our training.

[bushido_man96]

I agree to a point. I think that stances give us the baseline from which to work. They teach us about balance, centre of gravity and movement. When it comes to an altercation though, much of that will go out the window and the only thing left will be the residue of our training.

You make a viable point here. However, one thing that will help in a fight is the transitional phases of the stances, enabling us to keep moving and not tangle up our feet.