throws and ground work in shotokan?

[bushido_man96]

That is a nice history, Jiffy. It demonstrates what is possible when two masters get together and collaborate with each other, and don't let their egos interfere.

[Jiffy]

Absoloutly. It's great to see that even way back then, there were martial artisist more interested in the promotions of the arts as opposed to the promotion of their ego.

In regards to the MMA question. Absoloutly. I think more and more schools are integrating more grappling due to the popularity of it in modern MMA. I don't personally see a problem with this. We need to be flexible and open minded in our approach to the arts in order to learn everything they have to offer.

[bushido_man96]

I agree with you, Jiffy, about the MMA. Even years before the MMA was popular, my dad always wanted me to learn something like Hapkido or Aikido along with my TKD to help me with joint manipulations and the like.

[shotokanwarrior]

I would like to add as a side note that the name Shoto-kan came about in 1935 when a national commitee of karate supporters funded the first Karate dojo to be built. Funikoshi had no idea that the commitee agreed on the name until he saw it above the door. The name shoto he used as a youth writting chinese poems. Also the belt ranking system that we all love was an idea of Kano's, if I remember right and was adopted by Karate as well as the Gi. Prior to the meeting with kano, Karate had no belt system or uniforms.

[bushido_man96]

We can all thank Funakoshi and Kano for the advances that they made in spreading the martial arts to the public.

[ps1]

We can all thank Funakoshi and Kano for the advances that they made in spreading the martial arts to the public.

No doubt there.

[alsey]

all real fighting styles contain techniques for use at all ranges - striking, grappling, throws/takedowns, groundwork - and karate is no exception.

karate in its old okinawan form was essentially a very efficient method of civilian self defence. the kind of situations karate deals with are the same sort of violent civilian encounters that occur today, i.e. untrained thugs wanting to hurt you for some reason or another. karate was never meant for competition, or fighting other martial artists or warriors, it was made for civilian self defence.

the kata IMO are karate, not something practiced in karate. each kata contains the self defence techniques of the master who created it and is a style in itself. master motobu wrote:

"the naihanchi [tekki], passai [bassai], chinto [gankaku] and rohai [meikyo] styles are not left in china today and only remain in okinawa as active martial arts."

motobu refers to katas as styles and martial arts; each kata is a complete self defence system in itself and so it must contain techniques for dealing with any type of situation at any range. thus each kata contains striking, grappling, throws/takedowns and groundwork. this is also supported by the old masters studying just one or two kata in their lifetime. there was no need for any more because a kata, when understood properly, is a complete fighting system.

the problem of course is recognising these things in a kata. if one has never practiced grappling, then grappling techniques within a kata will not be spotted.

the other problem is that 'real' karate was intentionally supressed by its own masters in the early 20th century. master itosu (who i would call the grandfather of modern karate, if funakoshi is the father) began teaching karate to children as a way of keeping fit and developing discipline. as a result the real combat techniques of the kata were not taught. crippling locks and takedowns were taught as punches or blocks. soon enough this became karate-do and the real fighting art faded into obscurity. and so we have modern karate - an art that was intended for children. this is the reason why i quit my shotokan practice a few years ago.

despite this the kata remain, and hence the real fighting art that karate used to be is still there. its just not taught in modern karate schools.

[McNerny]

I agree with the statement that MMA can be considered responsible for the increased interest and study of grappling in shotokan and other traditional arts. It can't be a coincidence that all of the sudden after grappling started dominating the MMA ring, all kinds of traditionalists were presenting grappling techniques in their art too. And that being said, I believe that just as people over-study books and literature to look for symbolism and allegory, martial artists sometimes do the same in their kata. I know that there has always been grappling in shotokan and we have studied it a little bit in class, but I do believe that the grappling explosion in the MMA world led people to discover "secret grappling techniques" in their kata, which were never meant to be a double leg takedown followed by some ground work ending with an armbar, but simply a series of basic movements. Who knows though, karate's original masters have since passed away, and only they know how much and what grappling existed in shotokan.

McNerny

[UseoForce]

I agree with the statement that MMA can be considered responsible for the increased interest and study of grappling in shotokan and other traditional arts. It can't be a coincidence that all of the sudden after grappling started dominating the MMA ring, all kinds of traditionalists were presenting grappling techniques in their art too. And that being said, I believe that just as people over-study books and literature to look for symbolism and allegory, martial artists sometimes do the same in their kata. I know that there has always been grappling in shotokan and we have studied it a little bit in class, but I do believe that the grappling explosion in the MMA world led people to discover "secret grappling techniques" in their kata, which were never meant to be a double leg takedown followed by some ground work ending with an armbar, but simply a series of basic movements. Who knows though, karate's original masters have since passed away, and only they know how much and what grappling existed in shotokan.

McNerny

I'd have to agree.

[bushido_man96]

I agree with the statement that MMA can be considered responsible for the increased interest and study of grappling in shotokan and other traditional arts. It can't be a coincidence that all of the sudden after grappling started dominating the MMA ring, all kinds of traditionalists were presenting grappling techniques in their art too. And that being said, I believe that just as people over-study books and literature to look for symbolism and allegory, martial artists sometimes do the same in their kata. I know that there has always been grappling in shotokan and we have studied it a little bit in class, but I do believe that the grappling explosion in the MMA world led people to discover "secret grappling techniques" in their kata, which were never meant to be a double leg takedown followed by some ground work ending with an armbar, but simply a series of basic movements. Who knows though, karate's original masters have since passed away, and only they know how much and what grappling existed in shotokan.

McNerny

Very good points. I am pretty sure there aren't many takedowns present in my TKD forms. Maybe some joint manipulations, but not many takedowns.