Pressure Points - mystical or basic biomechanics?

[MizuRyu]

True, I saw a guy on PCP and triple C put his hand through a steel mailbox in Detroit. He doesn't weigh a pound over 130 either.

[bushido_man96]

I think to answer the question of the original post, I would say that pressure points are simple biomechanics. What we seem to be arguing is the effectiveness of their use in real life scenarios.

In my opinion, joint locks/manipulations are more useful than pressure points. But, this is in my experience.

[TriangleMan]

Yes, but how many of those scenarios were they smacked out on heroin? Trust me, that makes all the difference!

I too have held down many people bigger than myself, but not when they are high as a kite!

I'm not taking offence and not criticising what you are saying. In your experience, you are right. All I'm saying is that if you've never tried to control someone that is experiencing drug abuse, you couldn't possibly be expected to understand. I have never yet met a security officer yet who didn't underestimate the effect it would have.

Security officers arent exactly trained personel, know what I mean?

I have had engagements with people who were high, drunk, or a little of both. Yes, they certainly are much much stronger as a result of the drugs, but once on the ground, they're still not much more difficult to control than anyone else, simply because they have no idea what to do besides grab you and squeeze. Like I said, it kinda goes back to how much training you have- it may have been a combination of both factors rather than just one or the other.

[Jiffy]

Yes indeed you are correct, but with that many guys, it doesn't make a difference.

I've personally seen someone have a gooseneck lock put on them and then have them lift the 90kg bouncer on the lock. I've seen a guy keep fighting after someone has implanted a torque wrench in the back of his head. I personally have dropped a guy after being stabbed in the chest with a pen. When the mind goes into self-preservation mode it's sole purpose is to ignore pain and continue on in order to survive. It doesn't matter how good your locks are, there are some situations they simply will not work. Unfortunately, drugs can falsely place the mind in this state and can therefore render some techniques completely useless. I've been there and done it. I'm not talking from speculation, but from personal experience of having used them in the street.

BTW - at the time of the girl (before most of the above mentioned stuff) I had a couple of years grappling experience and 12 years Martial Arts experience in general. I'm not sure about the other guys though, but they were huge compared to me.

[gojushorei]

I've had experience using pressure points and had them used on me numerous times. I think like all other techniques in the martial arts they have to be trained to be effective. I've heard arm-bars and chokes mentioned and striking mentioned several times in this thread. Would you be able to do any of those thingss effectively without training or lots of experience? The answer is a resounding NO!

I wouldn't rely on pressure points to end a confrontation to the sole exclusion of all of my other techniques. That wouldn't make me a very good martial artist, or a very smart person for that matter. To limit yourself to one aspect of fighting is not very bright and will probably get you killed if you ever try it in a self defense situation.

Pressure points are just another tool in my tool box that I'd use if the opportunity arose. I hate talking negatively about fellow martial artists but George Dillman and his crew really put a poor light on pressure points. They are not the be all end all in martial arts nor should they be, in my opinion, studied by unskilled martial artists. Pressure points are like the icing on a cake. If the cakes good you don't really need the icing but it'll make the cake taste better if you have it. Unless it's cheap icing of course.

I'm done now.

[elbows_and_knees]

I've had experience using pressure points and had them used on me numerous times.[//quote]

In real fights???

I think like all other techniques in the martial arts they have to be trained to be effective. I've heard arm-bars and chokes mentioned and striking mentioned several times in this thread. Would you be able to do any of those thingss effectively without training or lots of experience? The answer is a resounding NO!

non trained thugs use strikes effectively in fights all the time. I use the terms high and low percentage. A high percentage technique is something that is effective most of the time and can be used by most anyone. ANYONE can punch somebody in the face, as long as they have arms. The head is a moving target, making it harder to hit, but it is a bigger target than a small pressure point, making it easier to hit than a small point. Same thing with an arm bar. Once I control your body, your arm is an easy pick. I can teach anyone to do an arm bar in one day. after a week, they would be able to apply it. these are higher percentage techniques than pressure points. In addition, there are so many pressure points, unless you only train a few, you have to think about which one you want to hit, how hard it needs to be hit, does it need to be hit, rubbed or used in combination to activate it, time of day, etc. There are WAY too many factors involved in using pressure points.

I wouldn't rely on pressure points to end a confrontation to the sole exclusion of all of my other techniques. That wouldn't make me a very good martial artist, or a very smart person for that matter. To limit yourself to one aspect of fighting is not very bright and will probably get you killed if you ever try it in a self defense situation.

agreed, to an extent.

[Jiffy]

Both gojushorei and elbows_and_knees raise good points. Simply put, regardless of what the technique is, go with what is most likely to work first, then keep what is less likely to work as your backup plan.

[TriangleMan]

I've personally seen someone have a gooseneck lock put on them and then have them lift the 90kg bouncer on the lock.

You'll have to explain to me what a gooseneck lock is, prefereable with pictures if you can find them, then whether or not the lock is applied from the clinch or the ground.

I've seen a guy keep fighting after someone has implanted a torque wrench in the back of his head. I personally have dropped a guy after being stabbed in the chest with a pen. When the mind goes into self-preservation mode it's sole purpose is to ignore pain and continue on in order to survive.

Yes, this is true- the body's endorphins are quite powerfull, but holding someone down isnt the same as putting them into a lock.

It doesn't matter how good your locks are, there are some situations they simply will not work. Unfortunately, drugs can falsely place the mind in this state and can therefore render some techniques completely useless. I've been there and done it. I'm not talking from speculation, but from personal experience of having used them in the street.

It depends what kind of lock you're applying before you can label them as

"useless." Chokes will always work, regardless of how much drugs someone has taken and how crazy they act. In terms of holding someone down, the biggest problem that people have when they attempt to hold someone is not moving with them.

Holding someone down requires you to act more like a blanket on someone rather than just dead weight- you move as they move and you control their hips

[bushido_man96]

You make a good point, TriangleMan. If someone can't breathe, then they are going to go to sleep. Its just a matter of getting into position to choke them out.

[Jiffy]

I've personally seen someone have a gooseneck lock put on them and then have them lift the 90kg bouncer on the lock.

You'll have to explain to me what a gooseneck lock is, prefereable with pictures if you can find them, then whether or not the lock is applied from the clinch or the ground.

Have you had any locking/grappling experience? This is a fairly generic lock to most styles.

I've seen a guy keep fighting after someone has implanted a torque wrench in the back of his head. I personally have dropped a guy after being stabbed in the chest with a pen. When the mind goes into self-preservation mode it's sole purpose is to ignore pain and continue on in order to survive.

Yes, this is true- the body's endorphins are quite powerfull, but holding someone down isnt the same as putting them into a lock.

The lock is just part of holding them down.

It doesn't matter how good your locks are, there are some situations they simply will not work. Unfortunately, drugs can falsely place the mind in this state and can therefore render some techniques completely useless. I've been there and done it. I'm not talking from speculation, but from personal experience of having used them in the street.

It depends what kind of lock you're applying before you can label them as

"useless." Chokes will always work, regardless of how much drugs someone has taken and how crazy they act. In terms of holding someone down, the biggest problem that people have when they attempt to hold someone is not moving with them.

Holding someone down requires you to act more like a blanket on someone rather than just dead weight- you move as they move and you control their hips

Unfortunately, putting chokes on a hospital patient is not allowed. How do you propose to move with someone when they are on a hospital bed horizontally and you are standing vertically on the floor? You are looking at it from a viewpoint of a dojo and in the scenario of an attacker. Now try to control someone who feels no pain, has increadible strength compared to usual, is in an akward position, is in the way of railing etc, for whom you have duty of care to (cannot injure them), while still protecting nurses and still adhering to local law as well as hospital policy. This is why I say that if anyone has not been there, they cannot comprehend how difficult it is to restrain someone with these restrictions.