Pressure Points - mystical or basic biomechanics?

[Shui Tora]

The scientific basis behind them is that if you hit a certain part on the body, they'll affect something else within the body. This is true, but pressure points fail horribly in combat situations, so how can something scientifically grounded end up like this?

Not all the time. Pressure points do work in combat situtations, such as; joint manipulation, arm locks, leg locks etc. In situtations that I have been in, they have worked well. If you only know a little about pressure points, then they cannot work for you. However, if you study them (Kyusho) and know where they are, and how to work them, then they won't fail.

A second point is that since many of these pressure points are demonstrated on people while in a relaxed state, its easier to attack whichever particular never bundle which is buried deep below the skin. During a fight, however, with increased blood flow to skeletal muscle and its over exertion, the muscle groups themselves will act like a shield to that particular nerve fiber. Not only is the nerve fiber now protected from attack by the muscle, but the adrenaline dump also greatly increases the pain tolerance of the individual.

Some of the nerve points (not all pressure points) are near the surface of the skin. So an increase of blood floor will push them nearer to the surface. I agree with what you are saying, however, to deal with this, the defender must attack a pressure point in a relaxed state, by doing so you can attack with maximum impact.

Don't also forget that both people will have adrenaline in their systems, and so the defender will have, like you said, a greater pain tolerance, enabling him/her to attack harder.

A third point is that not all people respond to pressure points the same way. Some people are very sensitive to it, others are not. I find that weaker more feeble people are often more sensitive to pressure points, while more athletic people will barely acknowledge it. This simple detail makes for a very dangerous assumption should you get involved in a fight with someone you know nothing about.

This is true. However, if you consistantly attack a pressure point, then you'll gain hypersensitivity to that surrounding area. Yes, people wiht more body muscle will have a tolerance gap, however, like I have said before, you have to have an understanding of how to work them, and attack them. Some points require you to push down, others to push up, and some to flick, to cause a reaction. Not all respond to a punch like some do.

A final point is that when you're heart rate reaches a certain level, fine motor skills (small muscle groups, such as needed for eye pokes, pressure points, or anything of that sort) greatly diminish in favor of gross motor movements (large muscle groups, such as your hamstrings, quads, and core muscles). This means that your likliness of hitting a particular target is going to greatly decrease, nevermind the fact that your opponent is now a moving target who's trying to block your attacks and generate his own.

A good point... In Karate (as an example) we are taught to be in a relaxed state, and that our feet and joints and fingers must too be in a relaxed state. Try striking a pillow with relaxed fingers, and then again with tension; you'll see that with tension your fingers will hurt more than being relaxed. Therefore in a fight, your hands and feet will do better with the little blood flow (like you mentioned) than a continuous flow. There being an advantage!

It depends on the attacker. You'll see from his body language whether or not he wants to smash your face in, or if he wants a fight. If he wants to smash you, then he'll grab anything that he can get his hand on, and hit you. If he wants a fight, then he'll keep his distance, in hope of drawing you in. In any situtation you have to have a level head. 9/10 times, your attacker will be tensed, and it is easier to manipulate his pressure points, joints etc because being relaxed, you will follow where it goes, being tensed means that your body is not in its proper "jelly" like state, and so there is an increase in breaking joints because your body is rigid and not relaxed like it usually is.

First off, most people that have had pressure points done to them arent in "fight mode" so to speak- many pressure points simply cause pain, and during times when one has a great adrenaline surge in a "fight or flight" scenario, pain tolerance is greatly increased. As a result, that particular pressure point does not yield the result it is expected to.

Yes, some pressure points do cause pain, but they are less effective. Heart meridian, lung meridian are extremely good. The Heart meridian begins in the armpit, and by scientific evidence, that is where your axillary artery / brachial artery is and both are secondary blood supply to the heart. Therefore, hitting / striking them will cause severe pain (there are a large amounts of nerve endings there too, such as the Latissimus Dorsi and the Radial as well.)

Sure, maybe hitting a pressure point in someone stomach may cause someone to recoil in pain, then again so will a swift hook in the rib cage.

Both will work well... However, there are more important pressure points to remember, like the Heart and Lung as well as the triple heater. There is no use in trying to remember the stomach points, basically, you'll hit someone in the stomach, and chances are you'll hit a small collection on pressure points!

The points that I mentioned above are extremely useful when dealing with punches and kicks. If you can get in the inside of the enemy's line of attack, you'll have a high success of hitting some good pressure points.

In the end, it is up to our own opinion to say whether pressure points are effectice / mystical etc or not. For me, there are effective, but not mystical. Why? Simply because you look at how the body works, and you can see how you can manipulate the joints etc. Look at where the nervous and blood systems are in the body and you can see where arteries and nerve endings etc can too be manipulated.

To me, they aren't mystical, they've been proved by Sicence to work, so in theory, yes; they are Biomechanics.

[TriangleMan]

The scientific basis behind them is that if you hit a certain part on the body, they'll affect something else within the body. This is true, but pressure points fail horribly in combat situations, so how can something scientifically grounded end up like this?

Not all the time. Pressure points do work in combat situtations, such as; joint manipulation, arm locks, leg locks etc. In situtations that I have been in, they have worked well. If you only know a little about pressure points, then they cannot work for you. However, if you study them (Kyusho) and know where they are, and how to work them, then they won't fail.

Joint manipulation including armlocks and leg locks are not pressure points. Its a simple matter of figuring out the range of motion of the particular joint and then extending it beyond that.

Don't also forget that both people will have adrenaline in their systems, and so the defender will have, like you said, a greater pain tolerance, enabling him/her to attack harder.

He or she will also have a higher probability of missing the target as well. Its hard enough to hit a target as large as the chin in the precise matter to knock someone out let alone trying to hit a smaller target (possibly more protected) in an indiscrete part of the body

A third point is that not all people respond to pressure points the same way. Some people are very sensitive to it, others are not. I find that weaker more feeble people are often more sensitive to pressure points, while more athletic people will barely acknowledge it. This simple detail makes for a very dangerous assumption should you get involved in a fight with someone you know nothing about.

This is true. However, if you consistantly attack a pressure point, then you'll gain hypersensitivity to that surrounding area. Yes, people wiht more body muscle will have a tolerance gap, however, like I have said before, you have to have an understanding of how to work them, and attack them. Some points require you to push down, others to push up, and some to flick, to cause a reaction. Not all respond to a punch like some do.

More physical damage can be done with a closed fist each time an attack gets through as opposed to constantly trying to set up a shot on such a smaller target. In regards to how you're supposed to work the pressure point, your opponent can easily counter what you're trying to do simply by shifting his weight or moving. As far as a punch in concerned, most people cannot take a punch- to borrow from Joe Rogan, the human jaw is not built to take a punch. Very few people can take a hard shot, but someone who knows how to throw a punch is still going to daze that particular person, even though he may not knock them out.

A final point is that when you're heart rate reaches a certain level, fine motor skills (small muscle groups, such as needed for eye pokes, pressure points, or anything of that sort) greatly diminish in favor of gross motor movements (large muscle groups, such as your hamstrings, quads, and core muscles). This means that your likliness of hitting a particular target is going to greatly decrease, nevermind the fact that your opponent is now a moving target who's trying to block your attacks and generate his own.

A good point... In Karate (as an example) we are taught to be in a relaxed state, and that our feet and joints and fingers must too be in a relaxed state. Try striking a pillow with relaxed fingers, and then again with tension; you'll see that with tension your fingers will hurt more than being relaxed. Therefore in a fight, your hands and feet will do better with the little blood flow (like you mentioned) than a continuous flow. There being an advantage!

The first point would natrually lead to this training mentality, however fight or flight is something that was devised through millions of years of evolution and it not easily overcome. Even while one may learn to relax himself, he's still going to suffer from the reactions of fight or flight, hes simply going to delude their effects a little more by keeping his head on his shoulders, so to speak.

First off, most people that have had pressure points done to them arent in "fight mode" so to speak- many pressure points simply cause pain, and during times when one has a great adrenaline surge in a "fight or flight" scenario, pain tolerance is greatly increased. As a result, that particular pressure point does not yield the result it is expected to.

Yes, some pressure points do cause pain, but they are less effective. Heart meridian, lung meridian are extremely good. The Heart meridian begins in the armpit, and by scientific evidence, that is where your axillary artery / brachial artery is and both are secondary blood supply to the heart. Therefore, hitting / striking them will cause severe pain (there are a large amounts of nerve endings there too, such as the Latissimus Dorsi and the Radial as well.)

As I said though, breaking someones jaw, nose, or ribs with a punch or a kick will have the same effect. The problem with the pressure point is that your attack is so subtle and dependant on hitting the target that if you dont hit that precise mark, the attack is useless. A punch, kick, knee, or elbow doesnt have to hit dead on to have the desired effect, it simply needs to make contact with you enough to transfer the power I generated onto you.

[Jiffy]

My take on this whole thing is this.

Learn the pressure points. Know where they are and what they do. When you are in the midst of combat, attempt to strike these areas with the view that a hard hit will get the job done, and the pressure point is a bonus.

[bushido_man96]

If it comes down to seeing the targets available, I believe I will take the head, body, and legs as opposed to the armpit.

[parkerlineage]

I agree with bushidoman. In the heat of conflice, I'm not going to go digging around people's forearms to find pressure points - I'm going to break their elbow and be done with it.

[alsey]

in my experience, the thought of striking pressure points didn't even enter my head. i admit i havn't trained much in pressure point striking, but to me the thought of trying to hit one on an opponent who doesn't want to get hit and is trying to hit you is absurd.

if you have control of an opponent in a grappling situation, then pressure point strikes become more practical. i find them quite good for setting up locks.

at the end of the day if you can honestly hit these points consistently in a real fight and do more damage than a punch to the face, then you're incredibly skilled IMO and that's what you should do. however, i don't believe you i have yet to see a decisive pressure point strike anywhere ever, so please understand my skepticism.

[MizuRyu]

The ONLY time I've used a pressure point was when I already had someone in a complete control joint lock to help them 'calm down'. Besides that, in all honestly, I side with Triangle Man almost 100%. I've been in many more 'real' fights than I'd like to, and I know that people get SLOPPY. Standing up, basic things tend to work better, because you have less time to 'think'. Grappling however gives you much more time to 'think' in comparison, and greater access to tricky spots on the body.

I'd slam a leopard strike into someone's rib tips way before I attempt to strike a nerve or vessel. It's just common sense.

And I highly respect Triangle Man for not bringing up the letters 'UFC' in those posts, that really gets on my nerves lol.

Another thing I will add however, is that not all people experience the same 'adrenaline dump'. People who train and train and train for that sort of thing learn RELAXATION and a gain a level of control. That's why it's so strictly emphasized in so many arts, to favor perfect technique at risk of getting hit. That way, you strike first and hardest, even if you do get clipped on the way in, you were still relaxed, and all the training you did to accomplish proper technique is not wasted in favor of frenzied swipes. I've seen what a perfectly executed snap punch to the head can do, and it is NOT pretty.

[elbows_and_knees]

As someone who fights in the ring and as part of my job, my take on pressure points is that they are HIGHLY overrated. At best, most pressure points are merely a nuisance that MIGHT allow you to capitalize on an opening created by such a point. You opponent may squirm just enough or hesitate just enough to give you the room or time to do what you need to do.

The other thing with pressure points is that its very hard trying to hit small, precise points while under adrenaline dump AND facing an opponent who does not want to be hurt - he is moving and resisting. Accuracy is severely decreased.

I've seen dr yang jwing ming touch a point on my friend;s arm which made his arm go limp, however, the drill was cooperative. I honestly don't think he could've hit such a small spot if my friend was resisting, and even if he could, look how long he's been training. A novice of a few years would not be able to accurately do it in a fight.

That said, I'm all for hitting larger areas - kidneys, liver, jaw, sciatic, etc. but I use those in the same way - use them to create openings for other strikes. If one causes a KO, that's great, but don't just expect it to happen.

[elbows_and_knees]

However, if you study them (Kyusho) and know where they are, and how to work them, then they won't fail.

anything can fail. Try all of your pressure points on a person doped up on pcp... Also, different people have different pain tolerances and not all points and locks work 100% on all people. that's just real life. I have a friend with very flexible wrists. it's almost imposible to submit him with any wrist lock. My legs are that way, but my wrist flexibility sucks.

Don't also forget that both people will have adrenaline in their systems, and so the defender will have, like you said, a greater pain tolerance, enabling him/her to attack harder.

it also eliminates a lot of his motor skill, making his attacks less precise...

This is true. However, if you consistantly attack a pressure point, then you'll gain hypersensitivity to that surrounding area. Yes, people wiht more body muscle will have a tolerance gap, however, like I have said before, you have to have an understanding of how to work them, and attack them. Some points require you to push down, others to push up, and some to flick, to cause a reaction. Not all respond to a punch like some do.

and you have to remember all of that while you are being attacked by one or more people...

A good point... In Karate (as an example) we are taught to be in a relaxed state, and that our feet and joints and fingers must too be in a relaxed state. Try striking a pillow with relaxed fingers, and then again with tension; you'll see that with tension your fingers will hurt more than being relaxed. Therefore in a fight, your hands and feet will do better with the little blood flow (like you mentioned) than a continuous flow. There being an advantage!

everybody trains to be relaxed. But the reality of human physiology tells us that most people are not relaxed at all when under the stress of an attack due to adrenaline rush. It takes experience, not just training, to achieve such a relaxed state. some of the bouncers I work with are more relaxed in fights than most martial artists I know. Why? they fight more. They are conditioned to it.

It depends on the attacker. You'll see from his body language whether or not he wants to smash your face in, or if he wants a fight.

you don't really have that kind of time, unless you're trying to figure that out BEFORE the altercation starts. Even then, if you have than kind of time, you usually also have time to run away.

If he wants to smash you, then he'll grab anything that he can get his hand on, and hit you. If he wants a fight, then he'll keep his distance, in hope of drawing you in.

that's really not true... it's WAY too broad of a generalization. an infighter will not keep his distance if he wants to fight. there is not always an object to pick up. He can just as easily smash you with his fist, elbows_and_knees, head, etc.

In any situtation you have to have a level head. 9/10 times, your attacker will be tensed, and it is easier to manipulate his pressure points, joints etc because being relaxed, you will follow where it goes, being tensed means that your body is not in its proper "jelly" like state, and so there is an increase in breaking joints because your body is rigid and not relaxed like it usually is.

9 out of 10 times, you will be tensed as well, until you've had enough fights to learn to deal with the adrenaline rush, overcome tunnel vision, etc. Even then, it'll be hard to manipulate pressure points due to what I've said above. His body being rigid does NOT increase the chance of you breaking his joints. It actually decreases them. If you are relaxed, I can easily manipulate you, unless you know how to counter me. when you are rigid, your muscles are flexed and I have to struggle. Try this experiment: walk up to a friend and shove his head downward. What happens? when you first do it, he's relaxed and isn't fighting, so his head drops. Once he realizes what's going on, he does what's natural - he resists against it - then his head comes to a halt, as he's resisting your pressure.

To me, they aren't mystical, they've been proved by Sicence to work, so in theory, yes; they are Biomechanics.

science also proves that adrenaline rush has just as much negative effect than good, yet martial artists ignore the negative and focus on the positive - some don't even know about the negative.

physiology proves that not all people have the same tolerance levels - you may try a point on me in a fight that doesn't work. then what?

[HG]

The advatage of PP or DM only comes through when it's gradually integrated with a decent level of fighting skill. If you can't fight then all the PP knowledge is pretty much useless. The PP & DM I've witnessed is traditional Chinese medicine points hit with a conditoned fist, fingers or grip.