Pressure Points - mystical or basic biomechanics?

[Jiffy]

What do you mean Wolfen?

[wolfen]

me + much larger friend = no rules (other than no groin and no serious damage) sparring

the one who taps out loses. we both practice pain tolerance so this tends to be a while.

crane fist to the anteriolateral armpit works well as does butt of palm to the acromion. I give that I know where many of his points are so things are a bit easier (he knows many of my points as well). however, i can generically find those 2 points about 75 percent of the time. (the trap. PP about 25 percent and the kidney nerve group about 40 percent. a nice-well placed stomp to the interior maleolus is useful, but by the point you are in range for that, you are probably preoccupied with grappling).

we are both moderately trained MAs. I am a sempai in my dojo (toshikan karate do).

[Shui Tora]

crane fist to the anteriolateral armpit works well

yeah; it sure does! If you want to seriously harm him. Hitting someone in the armpit, in such a game that you describe, is highly dangerous, especailly using the Crane Fist...

The Heart Point 1 (the armpit) is sensitive; there are loads of nerve clusters there, as well as a continuous blood supply...

All it takes is to misjudge the distacne with a "controlled" punch, and he'll be on the floor... Literally.

[Abraham_lincoln]

Interestingly enough, I was just hearing about this. At the dojo a couple nights ago, we were working on pressure points. Some, like the ones we were using, were simply just twisting the hand or arm in ways that it would break if it went beyond, forcing the opponent to move along with the hand or arm.

According to George sensei, (who is also a professor at a nearby college) western medicine has no explaination for certain pressure points, but eastern medicine says that there are energy lines running through your body, and pressure points block those lines. One example of this is a point just above the elbow that can stop the heart if pressed too long.

[alsey]

According to George sensei, (who is also a professor at a nearby college) western medicine has no explaination for certain pressure points, but eastern medicine says that there are energy lines running through your body, and pressure points block those lines. One example of this is a point just above the elbow that can stop the heart if pressed too long.

eastern medicine doesn't really have an answer, because for a start it doesn't even tell you what the energy is or what the lines are. eastern medicine, from what i know of it, is pretty much a 'if you do this, this happens' thing. western medicine does have an explanation; the nervous system.

[TriangleMan]

Pressure points are nothing more than a hypothesis based on scientific information. Im not going to say that its a theory, because there is far too much information against pressure points for them to be considered a theory when they're regarded as being combat effective.

The scientific basis behind them is that if you hit a certain part on the body, they'll affect something else within the body. This is true, but pressure points fail horribly in combat situations, so how can something scientifically grounded end up like this?

First off, most people that have had pressure points done to them arent in "fight mode" so to speak- many pressure points simply cause pain, and during times when one has a great adrenaline surge in a "fight or flight" scenario, pain tolerance is greatly increased. As a result, that particular pressure point does not yield the result it is expected to.

A second point is that since many of these pressure points are demonstrated on people while in a relaxed state, its easier to attack whichever particular never bundle which is buried deep below the skin. During a fight, however, with increased blood flow to skeletal muscle and its over exertion, the muscle groups themselves will act like a shield to that particular nerve fiber. Not only is the nerve fiber now protected from attack by the muscle, but the adrenaline dump also greatly increases the pain tolerance of the individual.

A third point is that not all people respond to pressure points the same way. Some people are very sensitive to it, others are not. I find that weaker more feeble people are often more sensitive to pressure points, while more athletic people will barely acknowledge it. This simple detail makes for a very dangerous assumption should you get involved in a fight with someone you know nothing about.

A final point is that when you're heart rate reaches a certain level, fine motor skills (small muscle groups, such as needed for eye pokes, pressure points, or anything of that sort) greatly diminish in favor of gross motor movements (large muscle groups, such as your hamstrings, quads, and core muscles). This means that your likliness of hitting a particular target is going to greatly decrease, nevermind the fact that your opponent is now a moving target who's trying to block your attacks and generate his own.

Lastly, using chi as a means to invoke pressure points is not a valid teaching technique. So many people claim to know chi exists, let alone claim to be able to control it. There is zero evidence to support the existence of chi, and should one be able to prove its existence it would be published in every scientific artical known and they would win the Nobel Prize along with millions of dollars

Martial arts movies and myths passed down through time are largely responsible for what many people are taught as pressure points today- greatly exaggerated. Many people have challenges pressure point artists and chi masters over and over again, yet none have ever accepted or stepped up to the challenge- this suggests a lack of faith in what these particular people are teaching. The reason why I believe they persist is because of their exotic nature and the mystery surrounding them.

What pressure points are good for is often in a grappling scenario to get your opponent to react. Examples include throwing a cross face on someone when you attack with a rear naked choke or if you drop an elbow into the inner thigh to open someone's guard.

Sure, maybe hitting a pressure point in someone stomach may cause someone to recoil in pain, then again so will a swift hook in the rib cage.

[wolfen]

I also know that they work (whether they affect other areas or not) because as a student athletic trainer, one learns things that can happen and need to be fixed, when in a fight, life is much easier when you are making these things happen. general knowledge of human kinetics makes a fight a lot easier, you see the person in terms of structures instead of shapes.

We are careful when we spar, as we both know anatomy and treatment that is there to prevent us from accidentally doing something really bad (as we know where the bad stuff is) and as insurance.

as to saying he may end up on the floor, if you are referring to pain, he feels very little in the way of pain, the last time he experienced pain even enough to mention it was when his left leung collapsed (spontaneous neumothorax) and even then he was walking around almost like normal including wearing a backpack.

in fact, most of our combined knowledge of pressure points has come from anatomy class. by knowing why something hurts, you are able to more effectively use it.

BTW, the brachial artery is less anteriorthan the nerve cluster at the insertion of the pectoralis. when aiming at the second you are unlikely to hit the first.

[Jiffy]

Pressure points are nothing more than a hypothesis based on scientific information. Im not going to say that its a theory, because there is far too much information against pressure points for them to be considered a theory when they're regarded as being combat effective.

The scientific basis behind them is that if you hit a certain part on the body, they'll affect something else within the body. This is true, but pressure points fail horribly in combat situations, so how can something scientifically grounded end up like this?

First off, most people that have had pressure points done to them arent in "fight mode" so to speak- many pressure points simply cause pain, and during times when one has a great adrenaline surge in a "fight or flight" scenario, pain tolerance is greatly increased. As a result, that particular pressure point does not yield the result it is expected to.

A second point is that since many of these pressure points are demonstrated on people while in a relaxed state, its easier to attack whichever particular never bundle which is buried deep below the skin. During a fight, however, with increased blood flow to skeletal muscle and its over exertion, the muscle groups themselves will act like a shield to that particular nerve fiber. Not only is the nerve fiber now protected from attack by the muscle, but the adrenaline dump also greatly increases the pain tolerance of the individual.

A third point is that not all people respond to pressure points the same way. Some people are very sensitive to it, others are not. I find that weaker more feeble people are often more sensitive to pressure points, while more athletic people will barely acknowledge it. This simple detail makes for a very dangerous assumption should you get involved in a fight with someone you know nothing about.

A final point is that when you're heart rate reaches a certain level, fine motor skills (small muscle groups, such as needed for eye pokes, pressure points, or anything of that sort) greatly diminish in favor of gross motor movements (large muscle groups, such as your hamstrings, quads, and core muscles). This means that your likliness of hitting a particular target is going to greatly decrease, nevermind the fact that your opponent is now a moving target who's trying to block your attacks and generate his own.

Lastly, using chi as a means to invoke pressure points is not a valid teaching technique. So many people claim to know chi exists, let alone claim to be able to control it. There is zero evidence to support the existence of chi, and should one be able to prove its existence it would be published in every scientific artical known and they would win the Nobel Prize along with millions of dollars

Martial arts movies and myths passed down through time are largely responsible for what many people are taught as pressure points today- greatly exaggerated. Many people have challenges pressure point artists and chi masters over and over again, yet none have ever accepted or stepped up to the challenge- this suggests a lack of faith in what these particular people are teaching. The reason why I believe they persist is because of their exotic nature and the mystery surrounding them.

What pressure points are good for is often in a grappling scenario to get your opponent to react. Examples include throwing a cross face on someone when you attack with a rear naked choke or if you drop an elbow into the inner thigh to open someone's guard.

Sure, maybe hitting a pressure point in someone stomach may cause someone to recoil in pain, then again so will a swift hook in the rib cage.

Very good post. Some great info.

[bushido_man96]

Very nice post, TriangleMan. Those are basically my feelings on pressure points as well.

[alsey]

There is zero evidence to support the existence of chi, and should one be able to prove its existence it would be published in every scientific artical known and they would win the Nobel Prize along with millions of dollars.

that's mainly because no one agrees on what exactly chi is. proving the existence of chi would be like proving the existance of love or something. its very difficult to examine in a scientific manner, though i'm sure someone will do it sometime in the future.

What pressure points are good for is often in a grappling scenario to get your opponent to react. Examples include throwing a cross face on someone when you attack with a rear naked choke or if you drop an elbow into the inner thigh to open someone's guard.

yeah, i agree. in jujitsu we use pressure points quite a lot, usually in setting up arm locks. they often work very well, especially against smaller opponents, but its still not something to rely on.