Pressure Points - mystical or basic biomechanics?

[Dragn]

Like many others said, I agree that pressure points have their place. In some situations they can be usefull.

But If you focus on them too much without first learning how to fight effectively with conventional techs, then you'll never be able to aply points effectively against a resisting opponent. Its hard enough to land a good hard punch to the jaw of a decent fighter let alone worry about exact points and angles.

I think they can be studied by advanced martial artists to take their abilities to a deeper level.

In my experience arts that focus on points and small joint manipulation without realistic resistance dont produce effective fighters.

Learn how to hit hard, and avoid getting hit first, and then refine it as you advance.

[bushido_man96]

Bushido-Man - respectfully, ALL techniques must be adpated for the circumstances and opponent.

Would your tactics be the same against a tall person and a short person? How about a guy with 'power-lifter style' tree-trunk legs - would you try your low kicks on him or your leg locks?....

Even 'simple' punch or kick techniques must be used in the right way for different circumstances, not just pressure point techniques.

The type of training that's mentioned on this thread of; first you get a thin guy then one with big arms...etc.etc. is exactly the type of training that will mean you have more knowledge of how the same technique - pressure point or otherwise - is applied to these types of people.

Also I think someone else mentioned that they won't TRY to hit a pressure point - why not? If you're TRYING to land a hook punch why not aim it in the right place rather than 'hit and hope'? Why rely on speed and strength - what if your opponent is faster and stronger? How long do you think you will have your speed and strength? Look at it the other way round: If you aim for a pressure point with a tasty uppercut, if you miss the point you've still smacked them pretty good.......yes? Like I said before if all we reduce martial arts to is having a 'good strong [insert technique here]' - then in my opinion all you'd ever need to do is buy a punch bag and do some weights.

What d'you guys think?

Kam.

I agree, you do have to adapt all techniques to the situation you are in. However, I feel adapting punches and kicks is easier and more efficient than trying to figure out if pressure points are going to work on someone.

Check the video again. The touchless knockout worked on his students, but the ju-jitsu students just kind of laughed at him. And besides, the set-ups that the guy was using took FOREVER. In a confrontation, you don't get that kind of time.

And you are right, we won't be young, fast, and flexible forever. This affects pressure point fighting just as much as other techniques. You have to have some quick motions, and a steady hand, along with some reaction time, to get the technique you want accomplished.

Another scenario that you don't get to practice in class: applying pressure points to a drunk brought in on disorderly conduct, or a guy jacked up on meth. A lot of times, things like that don't work in these situations.

[Kam]

bushido_man96 wrote:

I feel adapting punches and kicks is easier and more efficient than trying to figure out if pressure points are going to work on someone.

Well those adapted punches and kicks are the things that deliver the pressure point strikes. Most serious PP people may know 673 different points (exageration) but they have their favourites - maybe 5 or 10 - that they know they can access with a certain degree of success from many different situations. This leads into the figuring out what pressure points to use comment. Well, you don't figure it out, you just respond to what you're given - if his jaw's open, hit it, if his arm's grabbing you, grab it back....or hit it! etc.etc.

The touchless knockout worked on his students, but the ju-jitsu students just kind of laughed at him. And besides, the set-ups that the guy was using took FOREVER. In a confrontation, you don't get that kind of time.

Don't know who this guy is, so I can't really comment....but......touchless knockouts, hmm, they can be done - I can't do them, but as a pessimistic volunteer one day I had one done on me and I went out like a light. That's all I'm gonna say on that subject because I can't do them so don't have enough knowledge to offer. But one last thing, they DON'T NEED long setups, it can be done almost instantly. Just my ACTUAL experience, take it or leave it.

And you are right, we won't be young, fast, and flexible forever. This affects pressure point fighting just as much as other techniques...

Yes, but due to the fact that a lot of PP applications require very little stength to accomplish them, it means you can be 'effective' for longer.

Another scenario that you don't get to practice in class: applying pressure points to a drunk brought in on disorderly conduct, or a guy jacked up on meth. A lot of times, things like that don't work in these situations.

I have no experience to back up an argument either proving or disproving this statement so I'll say go to kyusho.com and check out their forum - there's a specific area for LEO's to post on. Many 'real world' experiences are shared there involving just the type of people you mentioned. They seem to have a lot of success.

[bushido_man96]

We can argue this until we are blue in the face, and we won't get anywhere. When I punch towards someone's face, I am looking to bloody a nose (or break it), water the eyes, etc. I am not aiming for a miniscule point to hit. There are some points that are great for use, but they are easier to deal with, like the brachial plexus and common peroneal. Also, like I said, joint manipulations work well, if you can adapt them.

As far as not requiring strength to apply them, this is false. You can't just touch a pressure point and do damage, you have to apply the pressure, and this is going to take some strength. If your ability to grip weakens, and your ability to hold other body parts to apply the pressure, then you start losing ground. One may retain this strength for a longer period of time than punching strength, but it is all in how you train, and how you take care of yourself as you get older.

[Shui Tora]

You can't just touch a pressure point and do damage, you have to apply the pressure

Yep, that's why they're called Pressure Points! (Pardon the pun)

To be honest, pressure points are to be used in self-defence, not kumite... You need to have been attacked on more than one occasion (like me... ¬_¬) to get the the feel and understanding of using presure points. You cannot use the same partner everytime when learning the points (I try to use a different person each lesson) to get the variation...

About 65% most of the time, on a complete stranger, I can hit a pressure point with a good solid punch or a grab, and have them on the floor in agony... (from past experience).

Mystical or Biomechanics? The chinese thought they were mystical, until the theory was disproven. They are biomechanics; the way the body has been made: and you DO need strength to hit them, they are covered by about 200mm of skin, just gently stroking it won't work!

That being that! Or have I missed the point?

[bushido_man96]

Quote Shui Tora: That being that! Or have I missed the point?

Nope, you haven't missed the point. You're good.

[Shui Tora]

Nope, you haven't missed the point. You're good.

Why thankyou... Only a couple of other students (incl. me) are taught about pressure points as my Sensei does not want the younger grades to start going around and using them for NOT their original purpose.

[Kam]

...When I punch towards someone's face, I am looking to bloody a nose (or break it), water the eyes, etc. I am not aiming for a miniscule point to hit. There are some points that are great for use, but they are easier to deal with, like the brachial plexus and common peroneal. Also, like I said, joint manipulations work well, if you can adapt them.

As far as not requiring strength to apply them, this is false. You can't just touch a pressure point and do damage, you have to apply the pressure, and this is going to take some strength. If your ability to grip weakens, and your ability to hold other body parts to apply the pressure, then you start losing ground. One may retain this strength for a longer period of time than punching strength, but it is all in how you train, and how you take care of yourself as you get older.

By bloodying a nose or breaking it, granted you may end the confrontation - however in todays ever increasingly litigous society you may end up in another confrontation....in front of a judge!

Have any of you guys watched a boxing match - or UFC etc. where a guy throws a punch that doesn't seem to make much of a connection, doesn't rock their head too much but still the receiver looks severely dazed or is even knocked out? I know I have. These strikes have either conciously or unconciously been applied to pressure points - some of the ones I've seen are St5, the GB cluster on the forehead, the mental nerve just down from the corner of the mouth, TW17 etc.etc. All of which, if you are trained to deliver a straight cross or hook type punch, are easily accessible when fighting. When defending yourself, the beauty here is that if successful, you get to defend yourself twice - once from the creep you're fighting and once from your country's legal system. The creep cannot go to a police station and get his broken bones and blood stained shirt photographed, because none of that occured. As far as you were concerned you defended yourself by throwing a punch and the attacked 'feinted/passed out' etc.

Of course what I'm describing here is the 'perfect' result of an encounter. As we all know perfection rarely occurs in everyday life, but in training for the worst, most violent, aggressive type of encounter and by looking to acheive some focus on what we are hitting and why, we can at least make SOME movement towards that ideal, rather than hope that you can 'out-punch' your adversary and cause enough damage that they give up, pass out or die.

As for 'not requiring stength' - what I actually said was: 'requires very little strength'. Obviously all movement requires some strength, but when at a good level (which I'm not), these points can be accessed very delicately and with the right energy transfer and intention they seem to work fine - again, this is MY experience, take it or leave it. What I'm not saying is that you play pat-a-cake with an aggressive opponent, I know I wouldn't. But what I've seen is that older folks who have a good skill in this can do just as well with what strength they have. Also, all those wrist locks, leg locks, toe holds, throws etc. etc. seem to get easier and easier to apply when you know just where to torque, press or squeeze.

By the way, I'm enjoying this discussion and have no wish to 'convert' anybody, I'm just sharing my ideas and more importantly my experiences. All I'm really saying is that if I throw out a hook punch to the jaw - it's going to ST5 every time and there's a reason for that.

[Anbu Alex]

well i think there are ways to look at it there arepresure points, blows that do outside damage and blows that strike 3in in to the body all thre are effective but each has their place pressure points in my oppinion are more about body compliance and having a good understanding of the body in general. Outside damage (like broken noses, busted eyes etc.) in more about training and doing it hard to naturally hit those outside vital points.(personally i perfer this) and thenthere is the aiming 3ins (musashi talks about punching thru the opponent) which requires training and accurate understanding of the opponents body and your own and like the second one is faster more reliable cause hey you miss by a inch there is still also a chance to do outside damage but can be paifull cause its unexpected that getting hit like that would hurt but like i said each has its place against a trained person u want to have other options than just pressure point fighting (not that i think its bad actually i like the idea) or a person who senses are dulled by drugs but this is my opinion and by no means i am an authority

[wolfen]

they work.

I freeform spar with a friend who can lift me at arms length. pressure points are the only reason we are CLOSE to even (and i have beaten him once or twice).