3 different styles

[Anbu Alex]

pocketcoffee says: Sport can=budo can=bujutsu can=Sport

i dont agree with that sport has rules and is a more controlled situation budo is ment for a life and death situation two different applications i do agree though that its up to the practitioner to make some thing either budo or to make it a sport

[bushido_man96]

I mean no offense in asking this, it is merely an honest question: Why is there such a strong desire in the traditional martial arts community to differentiate between "sport" and "martial" arts. It has been proven again and again that sport arts can be applied to real fighting with great effectiveness. Can't we agree that sport arts can be (and usually are) very martial?

If this was true, then I would not hear so many negative things about sport TKD.

[UseoForce]

I mean no offense in asking this, it is merely an honest question: Why is there such a strong desire in the traditional martial arts community to differentiate between "sport" and "martial" arts. It has been proven again and again that sport arts can be applied to real fighting with great effectiveness. Can't we agree that sport arts can be (and usually are) very martial?

If this was true, then I would not hear so many negative things about sport TKD.

I consider sport TKD and point (touch) karate to be exceptions to the rule. What is the rule? Judo, boxing, BJJ, MMA, capoeira, freestyle/folk wrestling, Greco, Pankration, Muay Thai, kickboxing, san shou, and catch to name a few.

[bushido_man96]

I'm not sure if I agree with this. To me there is only ONE style and many ways to apply it. The style itself is a dead thing. What you do with what you have learnt is totally up to you and the style does not play a part in this choice. If i am to punch you, it would be the same whether it was, to use your terminology, with budo in mind, with bujutsu in mind or with sport in mind. The punch itself is just that; a punch. The intent and reason behind the punch is what makes it different.

Sport can=budo can=bujutsu can=Sport.

In fact I think fighting is a balance of all three and what it is changes as any situation progresses.

When you are fighting for your life, it is all about the bujutsu. When you have won the confrontation, you have a choice to kill or not; budo. Getting into what ever situation it is that requires you to fight has already meant you have taken a line of choices, again, Budo. Fighting skills themselves can only be trained in a live environment and part of live environment training is sport fighting.

Fighting is fighting. Everything comes back to how you train and why you train. The thing you train in, whether it is for sport, for budo or for bujutsu, the thing itself is the same. It is your approach and eventual application that is different and even then, it is situation dependent.

You make some very good points here. But I think that the difference is in fact in what situation arises. You won't necessarily punch the same in competition as you do in combat. Therefore, it is not the same punch. I do believe at some point you can train all three, depending on the mindset that you have at the time, and what you are focusing on.

that's not true, but I'm glad you mentioned it. From a sport perspective, nothing changes. My right cross in the ring is the same as it is on the street. My hidaka jime in the street is the same as in shiai. A sport style does not have to alter anything. I think this is part of the reason why a sport style can produce an effective fighter faster than most traditional styles.

from a traditional perspective, you learn eye gouges, groin strikes, pressure points, clawing, ripping, small joint manipulation, weapons, etc. There is no competition venue that let's you use all of these things, and even within the confines of your own school, you really can't practice all of these things at full speed and power. Consequently, you DO have to change some traditional techniques if you want to spar or compete with them. This can cause confusion in the street.

Looking back in the day, look at the tournaments where kano and his judoka competed against jujutsu guys. The judoka owned them. Why? because they were able to randori full speed and power with their techniques. The jujutsu guys were for the most part unable to do this due to the nature of their techniques.

Good point, elbows_and_knees. However, don't you feel that the intent with which you punch is different on the street than in the ring?

What I mean is this: When you are sport fighting, you have a different mindset, or maybe feeling, about things than you do when you get into a self-defense situation. Maybe I am overthinking this, but do you understand where I am coming from?

I do agree with the point that you make about the inability to practice eye gouges, clawing, etc. at full speed. This is somewhat detrimental, when you compare it with the ability to spar with various rule sets at higher speeds.

[bushido_man96]

I mean no offense in asking this, it is merely an honest question: Why is there such a strong desire in the traditional martial arts community to differentiate between "sport" and "martial" arts. It has been proven again and again that sport arts can be applied to real fighting with great effectiveness. Can't we agree that sport arts can be (and usually are) very martial?

If this was true, then I would not hear so many negative things about sport TKD.

I consider sport TKD and point (touch) karate to be exceptions to the rule. What is the rule? Judo, boxing, BJJ, MMA, capoeira, freestyle/folk wrestling, Greco, Pankration, Muay Thai, kickboxing, san shou, and catch to name a few.

Why would sport TKD and point Karate be exceptions? Points gained in sport TKD are gained through body displacement, which means that you have to be able to deliver a fairly strong blow. It is also possible to win by knockout at sport TKD (Olympic). And in "point" sparring, contact can get a little rougher than you would think.

There is no reason to seperate these two cows from the rest of the herd.

[elbows_and_knees]

pocketcoffee says: Sport can=budo can=bujutsu can=Sport

i dont agree with that sport has rules and is a more controlled situation budo is ment for a life and death situation two different applications i do agree though that its up to the practitioner to make some thing either budo or to make it a sport

I train judo - I choke you and don't let go. Will you not die? I didn't make my judo bujutsu instead of sport - the choke is the same. The only difference is that I didn't let go. And 'do' symbolizes a way of life. If anything, bujutsu would be more life and death, not budo.

[elbows_and_knees]

Good point, elbows_and_knees. However, don't you feel that the intent with which you punch is different on the street than in the ring?

What I mean is this: When you are sport fighting, you have a different mindset, or maybe feeling, about things than you do when you get into a self-defense situation. Maybe I am overthinking this, but do you understand where I am coming from?

I understand, but no, the intent is no different. In both situations, I want to end the fight as quickly as possible, as long as we are talking about full contact fighting. if it's point, then yes, the intent is different.

[bushido_man96]

Good point, elbows_and_knees. However, don't you feel that the intent with which you punch is different on the street than in the ring?

What I mean is this: When you are sport fighting, you have a different mindset, or maybe feeling, about things than you do when you get into a self-defense situation. Maybe I am overthinking this, but do you understand where I am coming from?

I understand, but no, the intent is no different. In both situations, I want to end the fight as quickly as possible, as long as we are talking about full contact fighting. if it's point, then yes, the intent is different.

Ok, I'll go with the difference in point and sport. But, do you think the intent is different between an MMA fighter and a boxer? Or do they relegate about the same as well? I suppose they should be the same.

[elbows_and_knees]

Ok, I'll go with the difference in point and sport. But, do you think the intent is different between an MMA fighter and a boxer? Or do they relegate about the same as well? I suppose they should be the same.

same. now, the strategies are different, but the intent behind a KO punch is the same regardless.

[elbows_and_knees]

And in "point" sparring, contact can get a little rougher than you would think.

There is no reason to seperate these two cows from the rest of the herd.

No it can't - the judges won't let it. In my karate days, I was training under a guy from japan who didn't believe in point sparring. it was hard contact. However, I was also training at another karate school (american) and they entered tournaments. I had point taken away from me for excessive contact on several occasions.