3 different styles

[granmasterchen]

I thought i would start a thread based on my studies of various styles over the years along with the cultures that i've been exposed to.

My belief is that there are three different styles

style #1 sport

style #2 budo

style #3 bujutsu

according to the information that i have been given budo would refer to all art forms that end in "do" .....generally speaking......which have more of a philosophical undertone to their teachings which make it a martial "art". Examples being aikido, hapkido, tkd, tsd, karatedo. These arts are still martial and physical, but they teach us philosophical principals as well...in general

bujutsu generally would refer to the art forms that end in "jutsu" and are more heavily based on the physical aspects of warfare and killing. Examples would be jujutsu, taijutsu, aikijutsu and so forth, these are training programs formally used by organizations to teach soldiers certain combat skills....again this is a generalization

and sport, in my opinion, would be what we see on tv, olympic tkd, k1 kickboxing, mma. These are new age creations that are meant only for competition in general. Sports have had a huge influence on martial arts for centuries and over time many sports have been modified into arts, for example judo. Also many practitioners take their style into a sporting event but over time that competition will evolve to create a universal style of "sport" just like we have seen in the ufc.

again these are generalized concepts of the kanji used in the actual words and the various meanings in each culture. Of course there are many exceptions. For example; most of us do not go to such great lengths to find the meanings of the kanji and will simply add do or ryu or a similar prefix to the end of a martial art if we decide to start up one later in life. In most people's minds the meaning of do or ryu means study of. But in the japanese language there is more than a simple meaning to every word.

well i'll leave the rest to you and look forward to the comments that you will have on my thoughts.

[ninjanurse]

I would have to say I am generally in agreement with you here. Although I am sure that there will be discussions on which arts fit into each you seem to have hit the nail on the head. I too tend to look more to the philosophical aspects of meanings and feel symbolism is a very rich part of our martial heritages.

[pocketcoffee]

I'm not sure if I agree with this. To me there is only ONE style and many ways to apply it. The style itself is a dead thing. What you do with what you have learnt is totally up to you and the style does not play a part in this choice. If i am to punch you, it would be the same whether it was, to use your terminology, with budo in mind, with bujutsu in mind or with sport in mind. The punch itself is just that; a punch. The intent and reason behind the punch is what makes it different.

Sport can=budo can=bujutsu can=Sport.

In fact I think fighting is a balance of all three and what it is changes as any situation progresses.

When you are fighting for your life, it is all about the bujutsu. When you have won the confrontation, you have a choice to kill or not; budo. Getting into what ever situation it is that requires you to fight has already meant you have taken a line of choices, again, Budo. Fighting skills themselves can only be trained in a live environment and part of live environment training is sport fighting.

Fighting is fighting. Everything comes back to how you train and why you train. The thing you train in, whether it is for sport, for budo or for bujutsu, the thing itself is the same. It is your approach and eventual application that is different and even then, it is situation dependent.

[bushido_man96]

I'm not sure if I agree with this. To me there is only ONE style and many ways to apply it. The style itself is a dead thing. What you do with what you have learnt is totally up to you and the style does not play a part in this choice. If i am to punch you, it would be the same whether it was, to use your terminology, with budo in mind, with bujutsu in mind or with sport in mind. The punch itself is just that; a punch. The intent and reason behind the punch is what makes it different.

Sport can=budo can=bujutsu can=Sport.

In fact I think fighting is a balance of all three and what it is changes as any situation progresses.

When you are fighting for your life, it is all about the bujutsu. When you have won the confrontation, you have a choice to kill or not; budo. Getting into what ever situation it is that requires you to fight has already meant you have taken a line of choices, again, Budo. Fighting skills themselves can only be trained in a live environment and part of live environment training is sport fighting.

Fighting is fighting. Everything comes back to how you train and why you train. The thing you train in, whether it is for sport, for budo or for bujutsu, the thing itself is the same. It is your approach and eventual application that is different and even then, it is situation dependent.

You make some very good points here. But I think that the difference is in fact in what situation arises. You won't necessarily punch the same in competition as you do in combat. Therefore, it is not the same punch. I do believe at some point you can train all three, depending on the mindset that you have at the time, and what you are focusing on.

[pocketcoffee]

i don't think the punch is different. In sport I aim to take you out. In a real fight, I aim to take you out. The only differences that occur are set by the environment i.e gloves, time, ruleset etc. but ultimately, the punch is the same. It won't work otherwise.

[elbows_and_knees]

I'm not sure if I agree with this. To me there is only ONE style and many ways to apply it. The style itself is a dead thing. What you do with what you have learnt is totally up to you and the style does not play a part in this choice. If i am to punch you, it would be the same whether it was, to use your terminology, with budo in mind, with bujutsu in mind or with sport in mind. The punch itself is just that; a punch. The intent and reason behind the punch is what makes it different.

Sport can=budo can=bujutsu can=Sport.

In fact I think fighting is a balance of all three and what it is changes as any situation progresses.

When you are fighting for your life, it is all about the bujutsu. When you have won the confrontation, you have a choice to kill or not; budo. Getting into what ever situation it is that requires you to fight has already meant you have taken a line of choices, again, Budo. Fighting skills themselves can only be trained in a live environment and part of live environment training is sport fighting.

Fighting is fighting. Everything comes back to how you train and why you train. The thing you train in, whether it is for sport, for budo or for bujutsu, the thing itself is the same. It is your approach and eventual application that is different and even then, it is situation dependent.

You make some very good points here. But I think that the difference is in fact in what situation arises. You won't necessarily punch the same in competition as you do in combat. Therefore, it is not the same punch. I do believe at some point you can train all three, depending on the mindset that you have at the time, and what you are focusing on.

that's not true, but I'm glad you mentioned it. From a sport perspective, nothing changes. My right cross in the ring is the same as it is on the street. My hidaka jime in the street is the same as in shiai. A sport style does not have to alter anything. I think this is part of the reason why a sport style can produce an effective fighter faster than most traditional styles.

from a traditional perspective, you learn eye gouges, groin strikes, pressure points, clawing, ripping, small joint manipulation, weapons, etc. There is no competition venue that let's you use all of these things, and even within the confines of your own school, you really can't practice all of these things at full speed and power. Consequently, you DO have to change some traditional techniques if you want to spar or compete with them. This can cause confusion in the street.

Looking back in the day, look at the tournaments where kano and his judoka competed against jujutsu guys. The judoka owned them. Why? because they were able to randori full speed and power with their techniques. The jujutsu guys were for the most part unable to do this due to the nature of their techniques.

[elbows_and_knees]

I thought i would start a thread based on my studies of various styles over the years along with the cultures that i've been exposed to.

My belief is that there are three different styles

style #1 sport

style #2 budo

style #3 bujutsu

according to the information that i have been given budo would refer to all art forms that end in "do" .....generally speaking......which have more of a philosophical undertone to their teachings which make it a martial "art". Examples being aikido, hapkido, tkd, tsd, karatedo. These arts are still martial and physical, but they teach us philosophical principals as well...in general

bujutsu generally would refer to the art forms that end in "jutsu" and are more heavily based on the physical aspects of warfare and killing. Examples would be jujutsu, taijutsu, aikijutsu and so forth, these are training programs formally used by organizations to teach soldiers certain combat skills....again this is a generalization

and sport, in my opinion, would be what we see on tv, olympic tkd, k1 kickboxing, mma. These are new age creations that are meant only for competition in general. Sports have had a huge influence on martial arts for centuries and over time many sports have been modified into arts, for example judo. Also many practitioners take their style into a sporting event but over time that competition will evolve to create a universal style of "sport" just like we have seen in the ufc.

again these are generalized concepts of the kanji used in the actual words and the various meanings in each culture. Of course there are many exceptions. For example; most of us do not go to such great lengths to find the meanings of the kanji and will simply add do or ryu or a similar prefix to the end of a martial art if we decide to start up one later in life. In most people's minds the meaning of do or ryu means study of. But in the japanese language there is more than a simple meaning to every word.

well i'll leave the rest to you and look forward to the comments that you will have on my thoughts.

philosophically, yes, this is probably right. However, isn't it technically wrong? no style created after either the tokugawa or meiji restoration (can't remember which) is considered a 'jutsu' - it is all 'do' as the styles considered koryu or classical are all pre tokugawa. as far as jujutsu and taijutsu go, they are for all practical purposes, the same thing. jujutsu was a general term used for several hundred variations. At one point in time, there were over 700 "styles" of jujutsu. taijutsu was one of these offshoots.

from an application standpoint, it's all the same, IMO.

[UseoForce]

I mean no offense in asking this, it is merely an honest question: Why is there such a strong desire in the traditional martial arts community to differentiate between "sport" and "martial" arts. It has been proven again and again that sport arts can be applied to real fighting with great effectiveness. Can't we agree that sport arts can be (and usually are) very martial?

[cathal]

I think it is difficult to classify martial arts in a strict sense. They are more like shades of grays mixing in with one another.

[Menjo]

I mean no offense in asking this, it is merely an honest question: Why is there such a strong desire in the traditional martial arts community to differentiate between "sport" and "martial" arts. It has been proven again and again that sport arts can be applied to real fighting with great effectiveness. Can't we agree that sport arts can be (and usually are) very martial?

It's a double edged sword.

Traditional artists often don't like to grant the title of martial art to sport arts because of differences in training. Arguments get mixed up and miscommunication is a main factor.

You can see where this is going.