Royce vs. Hughes Post-Fight Feelings

[Jersey Devil]

Put one of todays MMA fighters in the 8 man of 10-15 years ago, and he'd still mop the floor with those fighters.

Sanches ( todays fighter ) vs. Tank ( fighter from back then )

Not quite a fair comparison. Despite his many flaws, Abbott would destroy Diego by virtue of his strength and size. Sanchez is vastly overrated as a fighter, anyway--he wouldn't last 3 minutes against Matt Hughes or Rich Franklin.

With respect,

Sohan

You're vastly overrating Tank and underrating Sanchez.

Sanchez would most likely get beaten by a more well rounded MMA fighter in Rich Franklin.

He would also get beaten by Matt Hughes for the simple fact that they play very similar Ground and pound games (except Hughes is much much better at it).

Sanchez has a lot to improve, but his grappling skills are good enough to get him through all but the top tier of his weight class.

[Sohan]

Put one of todays MMA fighters in the 8 man of 10-15 years ago, and he'd still mop the floor with those fighters.

Sanches ( todays fighter ) vs. Tank ( fighter from back then )

Not quite a fair comparison. Despite his many flaws, Abbott would destroy Diego by virtue of his strength and size. Sanchez is vastly overrated as a fighter, anyway--he wouldn't last 3 minutes against Matt Hughes or Rich Franklin.

With respect,

Sohan

You're vastly overrating Tank and underrating Sanchez.

Sanchez would most likely get beaten by a more well rounded MMA fighter in Rich Franklin.

He would also get beaten by Matt Hughes for the simple fact that they play very similar Ground and pound games (except Hughes is much much better at it).

Sanchez has a lot to improve, but his grappling skills are good enough to get him through all but the top tier of his weight class.

Perhaps. But I've watched Tank Abbott for years and I've seen plenty of Diego Sanchez in action, too. Well-rounded fighter or not, if Tank is at his best he throws devastating heat, and the weight/strength advantage between him and Diego is just too great.

Sanchez's grappling skills are very impressive--but who has he fought? And sure, towards the end, Tank's lack of conditioning and submission technique was bordering on embarrassing. But it's the old argument of skill vs. strength and power. For two 5 minute rounds in a cage, I have a hard time seeing Diego Sanchez not getting KO'd by a peak form Tank Abbott. Kind of hard to get that armbar submission when you've got a 600 lb bencher pounding you in the eye socket.

With respect,

Sohan

[Jersey Devil]

Perhaps. But I've watched Tank Abbott for years and I've seen plenty of Diego Sanchez in action, too. Well-rounded fighter or not, if Tank is at his best he throws devastating heat, and the weight/strength advantage between him and Diego is just too great.

Sanchez's grappling skills are very impressive--but who has he fought? And sure, towards the end, Tank's lack of conditioning and submission technique was bordering on embarrassing. But it's the old argument of skill vs. strength and power. For two 5 minute rounds in a cage, I have a hard time seeing Diego Sanchez not getting KO'd by a peak form Tank Abbott. Kind of hard to get that armbar submission when you've got a 600 lb bencher pounding you in the eye socket.

With respect,

Sohan

Theres no doubt that Tank knows how to throw a good right hand, but thats really all he knows how to do, however once hes on the ground with an opponent that has any knowledge of ground fighting, Tank has never imposed any kind of offense whatsoever.

Yes, armbars are difficult to get when someones punching you in the face, however what most people overlook is that one person is able to punch the other in the face because they've also trained in grappling and are able to keep their balance and posture while the fighter on the bottom is attempting to manipulate it. If you dont know how to disperse your weight when you're on top (Tank) and you fight someone who is at least relatively decent with a guard, you're going to find it quite difficult to throw effective strikes from there.

The only people Tank ever pounded on from the top were people who didnt know what they were doing. Watch his fight with Taktarov or Yoshida- both times he starts on top, but is unable to throw any kind of effective strike from inside the guard.

Tank's large weight advantage is the only thing he has, but if Diego Sanchez is fighting UFC at 170, the probably means that his normal weight is somewhere around 180-185, which makes a big difference.

[Sohan]

Perhaps. But I've watched Tank Abbott for years and I've seen plenty of Diego Sanchez in action, too. Well-rounded fighter or not, if Tank is at his best he throws devastating heat, and the weight/strength advantage between him and Diego is just too great.

Sanchez's grappling skills are very impressive--but who has he fought? And sure, towards the end, Tank's lack of conditioning and submission technique was bordering on embarrassing. But it's the old argument of skill vs. strength and power. For two 5 minute rounds in a cage, I have a hard time seeing Diego Sanchez not getting KO'd by a peak form Tank Abbott. Kind of hard to get that armbar submission when you've got a 600 lb bencher pounding you in the eye socket.

With respect,

Sohan

Theres no doubt that Tank knows how to throw a good right hand, but thats really all he knows how to do, however once hes on the ground with an opponent that has any knowledge of ground fighting, Tank has never imposed any kind of offense whatsoever.

Yes, armbars are difficult to get when someones punching you in the face, however what most people overlook is that one person is able to punch the other in the face because they've also trained in grappling and are able to keep their balance and posture while the fighter on the bottom is attempting to manipulate it. If you dont know how to disperse your weight when you're on top (Tank) and you fight someone who is at least relatively decent with a guard, you're going to find it quite difficult to throw effective strikes from there.

The only people Tank ever pounded on from the top were people who didnt know what they were doing. Watch his fight with Taktarov or Yoshida- both times he starts on top, but is unable to throw any kind of effective strike from inside the guard.

Tank's large weight advantage is the only thing he has, but if Diego Sanchez is fighting UFC at 170, the probably means that his normal weight is somewhere around 180-185, which makes a big difference.

At 9-11, Tank Abbott isn't remotely invincible, nor is he someone I particularly admire, but I don't think Diego is the man to defeat him. The guys that beat Tank by strikes or submissions were more equal to him in size and strength. Abbott isn't completely clueless in submission fighting as is commonly thought--I believe at least 3 of his victories were by submissions. Also, don't forget he was a JC All-American wrestler, which means he has better balance than you're giving him credit for.

Diego would have a hard time taking Tank down in any case. It's not like fighting Kenny Florian. Diego is a good submission grappler, but he's no Royce Gracie, and Tank is no Akebono. It would be all up to how well Sanchez could protect himself while he's trying to manipulate a 240 lb bull who is knocking his teeth out.

With respect,

Sohan

[granmasterchen]

i agree with sohan, it would just be like watching a bob sapp fight in pride

[Jersey Devil]

At 9-11, Tank Abbott isn't remotely invincible, nor is he someone I particularly admire, but I don't think Diego is the man to defeat him. The guys that beat Tank by strikes or submissions were more equal to him in size and strength.

When Vitor Belfort came on to the scene, he was a mere 185 lbs, around the same weight Diego Sanchez is, and managed to blitz right through Tank. Granted Belfort is much more of a boxer than a jiu jitsu fighter, but he still managed to take Tank down. Afterwards when Tank attempted to shoot in on him, Belfort was easily able to sprawl out of it- he (Belfort) was about blue belt level in BJJ at the time

Abbott isn't completely clueless in submission fighting as is commonly thought--I believe at least 3 of his victories were by submissions. Also, don't forget he was a JC All-American wrestler, which means he has better balance than you're giving him credit for.

Tank's "submission" victories were a result of him getting on top of people who were clueless on the ground- with no way out, they forfeited the match rather than get beat on. His other submission was a neck crank can opener, a technique so simple that Mark Coleman knows it (since hes also closed his eye to submissions in the game of MMA).

As far as his junior college wrestling abilities, he lost alot of that with his binge drinking lifestyle.

Diego would have a hard time taking Tank down in any case. It's not like fighting Kenny Florian. Diego is a good submission grappler, but he's no Royce Gracie, and Tank is no Akebono.

I cant believe you compared Diego to Royce- Royce is reknown for introducing the world to BJJ- thats it and thats where his respect is due. His jiu jitsu, on the other hand, is no where near good caliber (which I thought most people saw when he fought Matt Hughes). Diego would probably run through Royce faster than he ran through Florian. As far as Tank and Akebono, Akebono is just a strong fat sumo guy- Tank is a fat strong sumo guy that can throw a right hand.

It would be all up to how well Sanchez could protect himself while he's trying to manipulate a 240 lb bull who is knocking his teeth out.

Skill goes a long way- to give an example of other small vs large guy matches, take the example of Bob Sapp in two MMA fights.

Sapp is 375lbs with 6 pack abs and knows how to sprawl. He fights the champion at the time, Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira, who weighs in at around 220lbs. Nog is never able to score a takedown on Sapp because he insists on the double leg takedown, something that is quite difficult to do on far larger opponents.

Skip ahead to Sapp's fight with Fujita, an accomplished japanese wrestler and decent MMA fighter. Despite giving up 150+ lbs to a much much stronger opponent, Fujita throws a low single leg (good against large opponents) and takes Sapp down to his back where he makes quick work of him.

[Sohan]

A couple points:

--No way can you compare Vito Belfort to Diego Sanchez. Diego can't punch, and he isn't as good a grappler as you think he is. I've watched him in grappling-only tourneys and I wasn't that impressed. And even at 185 Vitor was a heck of a lot faster and a bit stronger than Sanchez is.

--Diego over Royce Gracie? Not a chance. Diego would have problems with Renzo, let alone Royce.

--I hate when people use Bob Sapp as an example of fighting a big guy. Sapp is a washed up no-skills poorly-conditioned ex-footballer who took to fighting to keep from working at the carwash. Overrrated and overhyped. Who has Sapp beaten?

Diego Sanchez is a good fighter against guys in his own weight class. He likely has a good future if he continues to improve. But until I see him handle a powerful striker who outweighs him by 50+ lbs, I'm not convinced he can handle a big puncher, submission skills or not.

With respect,

Sohan

[Jersey Devil]

A couple points:

--No way can you compare Vito Belfort to Diego Sanchez. Diego can't punch, and he isn't as good a grappler as you think he is. I've watched him in grappling-only tourneys and I wasn't that impressed. And even at 185 Vitor was a heck of a lot faster and a bit stronger than Sanchez is.

Diego is an abu dhabi level submission fighter. If you werent impressed, I dont know quite what else could impress you. Have you seen his matches from abu dhabi at all, particularly his one with Marcello Garcia? Some of them were great matches. Diego is a very skilled ground grappler, much more than you are giving him credit for.

--Diego over Royce Gracie? Not a chance. Diego would have problems with Renzo, let alone Royce.

I question how much you know about the Gracies and their jiu jitsu- saying that "diego would have problems with Renzo let alone Royce" is suggesting that Royce is better than Renzo- Royce has the "lesser" jiu jitsu of all the Gracies (by a landslide) and thats a fact.

--I hate when people use Bob Sapp as an example of fighting a big guy. Sapp is a washed up no-skills poorly-conditioned ex-footballer who took to fighting to keep from working at the carwash. Overrrated and overhyped. Who has Sapp beaten?

Nice definition of Sapp- and what would that make Tank? Who has he beaten?

Diego Sanchez is a good fighter against guys in his own weight class. He likely has a good future if he continues to improve. But until I see him handle a powerful striker who outweighs him by 50+ lbs, I'm not convinced he can handle a big puncher, submission skills or not.

Big punchers arent particularly difficult to fight- its the guys who have good takedown defense and are also big punchers that are difficult to fight (Sylvia, Cro Cop, Silva). While knowledgable on what to do in terms of wrestling, Tank is just not on the same level as these guys when it comes to fighting. The only thing that could win him the fight is his big right hand, and he'll have to hit it early as he gasses quite quickly.

[Rich67]

Royce lost that fight because he had refused to adapt along with the new UFC's rules and fighters. He still firmly and honestly believed that BJJ was the end-all of martial arts. Hughes showed him this was not the case. Since he introduced BJJ to the world in the early UFC, fighters have learned his art, adapted it to the UFC, and learned more about it than Royce could have imagined.

What he did for martial arts and the UFC can never be understated. He is still a legend and always will be.

The new fighters are more well rounded than the UFC fighters of old. Tank Abbott? The guy is a has-been. He's fighting in Pride and looks pathetic. The guys these days that are at the top of the game are Ortiz, Franklin, Hughes, and Liddel. They are ideal and well-rounded UFCers, IMO. Any one of those guys would have given Royce a beating, sorry to say. Royce needs to work on his stand-up game (take some Muay Thai) and also put some muscle on his bones. He wasn't ready for Hughes and what he threw at him, and if he wants to come back like he said and impress, he needs to be much more powerful.

[alsey]

i'm a bit late, but i wasn't here at the time so here's my thoughts. i never thought for a second that royce would win. i've only been watching UFC for the past three years but hughes is incredible. he's a superb fighter in every way at the top of his game. royce is a legend in every sense of the word, but damn, he's old and past his best. look at any sport; you don't see champions from ten years ago coming back and winning everything. sports evolve a lot, and unless you're there at the top all the time, you'll soon be left behind.

royce got dominated as i expected, though fair play to him for not submitting to that armbar. don't get me wrong; royce is a hero and i would have loved him to win, but that was a dream at best. hughes was significantly better in every way.