A little research.

[ps1]

Nin Tai wrote:

Itosu, one of Funakoshi's teachers developed the

Pinan series oftern refered to as "school boy karate" because it was used

to introduce karate into the school system.

While this is true...we also introduce mathematics using basic numbers, addition and subtraction. This element is no less important...perhaps moreso...than advanced calculus and triginometry.

Nin Tai wrote:

I never used the term "martial art"

True. You did not. But many others use it very caually without true understanding of what they are saying or it's significance. It was a general coment. I offer my humble apologies if you felt the whole post was directed at you. It was not.

Nin Tai wrote:

So for any modern day martial artist to say that another is studying only sport and not "combat" is a little hipocritical. It shows a lack of understanding of the past."

I have to repectfuly disagree. There is a certain way that someone trains

for sport that would be completely inapropriate for "combat" (just to use

the term). To see this and point this out is just being observant.

I agree...but the original thread complains that too many people think of Shotokan as sport. My point is that most of the systems of Karate practiced today are geared toward aesthetics and sport in many ways. To pick on one and not another is hipocritical. I'm sure you've been around long enough that you've seen many "traditional" schools of virtually every style that has competition classes...afterall, if you're going to compete...you should train for that competition. I agree with you 100% on that. It's just not only Shotokan.

Nin Tai wrote:

Good topic, Good posts.

No doubt. I like a post that makes me break out the books.

Makoto Jin wrote:

What I want to know is who out there, other than me, practices Shotokan and uses it in contact situations? Who attends or teaches at a dojo where students learn combat, power in jiyu kumite, and not just MC Dojos.

I have been unfortunate enough to need to use components of Karate during my time in Iraq. However, the most important was the element of zanshin. I made it the motto of my squad. Everywhere we went, we took on an impenetrable posture. Remaining mind, extention of energy (usually a bullet ), and complete cutting down. These are the things that Kata, Kumite, and Kihon truly teach. This is what I have had to use...in actual combat...where "full contact" meant life and death.

[NinTai]

PS1

Thank you for your service.

True. You did not. But many others use it very caually without true understanding of what they are saying or it's significance. It was a general coment. I offer my humble apologies if you felt the whole post was directed at you. It was not

No worries. Just wanted to make sure I didn't misrepresent myself

afterall, if you're going to compete...you should train for that competition.

I agree. Unfortunatly some people believe or are led to believe that

training to compete and training to protect you life are one in the same.

While this is true...we also introduce mathematics using basic numbers, addition and subtraction. This element is no less important...perhaps moreso...than advanced calculus and triginometry.

I see what your saying but people also don't make the claim that basic

mathmatics is the same as or on the same level as calculus and

triginometry. Calculus and triginometry require a deeper understanding

of mathmatics. This would be the same as comparing the pinans to older

kata such as naihanchi and passai

I would like to make a comparison and see if we agree:

Military, Classical Bujutsu

Goal: to dominate the enemy and survive (make the enemy die for their country)

Civilian Self Defense, "Traditional Karate"

Goal: to "not lose" to survive the situation and get away.

Competition, Sport karate

Goal: to "win" not concerned about surviving because you life is not in danger.

Law Enforcment kind of falls between all three

Goal: The need to survive, and to win. they cannot run away but may

need to use deadly force.

Makoto Jin

Unfortunatly we tend to classify styles instead of the people and training

and their training methods.

I wouldn't be concerned about what other people say unless you're

unsure of the why and how of your training.

[ps1]

I would have to agree whole heartedly. I think you put it very well and in a manner that Mokoto Jin could easily use to respond to those that challenge Shotokan's "effectiveness."

In the end...everything comes down to the person who is practicing and their intentions.

Thank you,

ps1

[Yasutsune Makoto]

ps1, I would also like to thank you for your service.

You have all brought up some very great and excellent points. As well as re-established my equilibrium about the matter. I will be sure to point out to people to look at the individual and not the style.

Just a question to get other perspectives. What parts of karate do you emphasize? And for what reasons do you train?

To answer my own question:

I think all aspects are important, and based off of one another, but if i were to order them according to time spent...

Kata/Kihon/Bunkai

Makiwara/Meditation

Application in fighting

This order varies from week to week, this just happens to be common the last few.

I train to develop my mind, spirit, body to the highest levels. I also try and follow budo and the other principles that were stressed by Funakoshi and those before him.

*Meditation occurs during all aspects, placed here arbitrarily.

Edited May 27, 2006 by Yasutsune Makoto

[Eugeu_Ryu_Stylist]

Eugeu_Ryu_Stylist

Please, if you will define "full contact sparring"

and what you define as "combat".

Thanks

When I spar I use very ligt foam gloves. But you can hit anywhere on the body. It is like being in a real fight, we go all out.

As for training for combat, I live in a neighborhood where the crime rate is extremely high, and I have to train accordingly. I train in strategy, I look for different ways to escape if need be. Whether it is day or night, over here you always have to be on your guard. It is not just self defence, it is survival.

[NinTai]

Eugeu_Ryu_Stylist

Thanks

I'm always curious to see how people define these terms.

Makoto Jin:

What I was taught, and am still being taught is this list from most to least important:

Kata

Bunkai

Makiwara

Hojo-Undo

Yokusoku Kumite

Jiyuu kumite

I have to get the list (again) from my instructor but this is about 90% correct.

[ps1]

1. Kata (includes Bunkai Practice)

2. Kihon (Drills of all types including Makiwara)

3. Kumite (ippon kumite to jiyuu kumite to full contact)

Of course, the more experienced and advanced the person I train with, or am teaching; the more intense the training becomes.

We don't do "full contact" every day because of the dangers associated with it. When we do go full contact we usually wear Boxing Headgear and MMA style gloves. By full contact I mean enough contact to knock your opponent out. Literally full go with MMA style rules. Leg Kicks, take downs, punching, knees and elbows ect...

[cathal]

I've been reading a lot lately and am finding an extremely disturbing number of sources stating that Shotokan has become nothing but a competition style.

I'm not going to lie, this makes me ANGRY!

What I want to know is who out there, other than me, practices Shotokan and uses it in contact situations? Who attends or teaches at a dojo where students learn combat, power in jiyu kumite, and not just MC Dojos. Control is a huge part of karate, the difference between those who train and those who don't.

So, karate-ka and especially Shotokan practiticioners. Tell me how many train for combat and apply it in free spar with control, or just train for competition. Is there anyone else out there fed up with the statement, "shotokan is just a sport"?!?!?

I haven't actually noticed any of those opinions, but then again I don't really go looking for them, either. When it comes to the training in our dojo great emphasis is placed on the fundamentals of the technique, proper application of the technique, and the proper use of power.

I am also affiliated with the JKA, where do you train?

[Yasutsune Makoto]

I train at The Ohio State University, midwest region of the U.S.

How about yourself?

[Cheradenine]

Nin Tai wrote:

Remaining mind, extention of energy (usually a bullet ), and complete cutting down.

I couldn't have put it better myself. Since the term was introduced to me in the Dojo several years ago, I have tryed to apply it to every aspect of my life; it was described as the remaining spirit after a technique, but after reading the story of Musashi where the mind is ever present and fully alert (and to some degree was romanticised for great storybook reading), to Archers who would take aim, turn their head away, release the arrow to guide it with their mind alone - this is what martial arts means to me. The confidence, patience and persistance displayed in day to day life is shows a martial artist, not the colour of their belt or trophies.

Again, and older school of thought, but one I tend to lean towards.

Sorry if I digress, something I just wanted to comment on.