A little research.

[shotokanbeginner]

I am also completely fed up with people saying it's a competition style, thank goodness someone finally decided to post a thread like this.

[NinTai]

You're comment about combat not being MMA, much agreed. It is a wrong word choice on my part, apologies to the team. What I mean is just anything more than point-sparring. Something where you can see the effectiveness of your technique and not just "If I had thrown that for real it would have hurt", or "Tag, you're it". You know what I mean?

Again, sorry.

I can see where your comming from, unfortunatly JKA sparring is pretty

much the basis of "point sparring".

The bouncing back and forth in zenkutsu-dachi baiting and waiting for

ipon. Stopping the punch before contact and kiai-ing for emphisis started

with the JKA.

Lets face it, Shotokan flurished in the universities of Japan. What do male

college kids like to do? Play contact sports, fight and be manly.

competition between colleges were fierce and there was some contact

but it was all still sports oriented.

Ask yourself how much time do you spend doing hojoundo, makiwara

training and the deeper study of your kata vs sparring.

Sparring should last on the list of priorities. If you spend most of your

time sparring and kata is second on because you have to, then you are

treating Shotokan like a competition style.

[ps1]

Nin Tai said:

When Funakoshi brought this art to Japan many things where changed

some things, like the the meaning of Karate (China hand) to Karate

(empty hand) were political, other changes such as stances and hand

positioning where for aesthetics.

Sorry to tell you that this shift toward Aesthetics happened far before Funakoshi. Those who do not agree have not studied the differances between the classical bujutsu and the classical budo. Further...have not related it to the modern versions of each. I quote renowned martial arts historian Donn Draeger writing on the effects of the Meiji Restoration {began in 1868 after the overthrow of the Tokogawa Bafuku} on the classical budo and bujutsu:

"Ultranationalists and militarists, both in and out of government, distorted the intrinsic purpose of classical bujutsu and budo, thus proving the truism that new uses can be found for amy product of man's ingenuity; indeed, a hammer can be used to paint a house if it satifies the expectations of whoever uses it in this absurd fashion. The forced change in primary purpose of the classical disciplines entailed discarding certain of the integral elements of their respective compositions and a subtle shift in emphasis on the priorities of the remaing elements."

He continues:

"The intrinsic nature of classical bujitsu is manifested by the threefold relationship:[1]combat, [2] discipline, [3]morals. The forced change modified this relationship to the following:[1]discipline, [2] morals. Similarly, the intrinsic nature of the classical budo comprises [1] morals, [2]discipline, [3] aesthetic form. This was also changed to [1]morals and [2]discipline. It will readily bee seen by these changes, made aproximately a century ago, that the people advocating them made no distinction between bujutsu and budo; in their eyes, the two were equated. This is the overiding reason for the general misunderstanding of classical disciplines that prevails today, which helpls explain why the majority of modern [society] are unable to tistinguish betwwwn the two very different kinds of classical disciplines, and furthermore, why they are unable to make any distinction at all between clasical and modern disciplines."

My point is, and so is Draeger's, is that the "combat effectiveness" of a "martial" art has been lost for some time. It has only been in the last few decades that people have begun to rediscover it. The excerpts above are from his book Modern Bujutsu & Budo. If you also read his books Classical Bujutsu and Classical Budo you will see that this shift from combat effectiveness toward Aesthetics, happened several centuries ago and those arts shifted more toward how one should live his or her life. These arts were called Budo, and were not as combat effective as the bujutsu...as such was not their purpose. Be honest with yourself...when's the last time you practiced archery, flanking maneuvers, covered the types of terrain features, or learned how to fight as a mass unit in rank and file.

So for any modern day martial artist to say that another is studying only sport and not "combat" is a little hipocritical. It shows a lack of understanding of the past. The only people who do truly practice a martial art would be those who serve in the military arms. The rest simply practice an aesthetically pleasing system that instills discipline, supports morals, and has some effective...but basic...self defense applications. Shotokan is just as "effective" as most other martial arts, when practiced intently.

Sorry for being soooooooooo long winded...they were just long quotes.

Thanks,

ps1

[ps1]

I said:

and shows a lack of understanding of the past.

Since I don't believe that of many of you...I will ammend this to say, "shows a POTENTIAL lack of understanding of the past.

I make this change because, in general, I am usually very impressed by the depth and understanding demonstrated in this forum. I have learned a great deal here. My apoligies for any offense that my wording may have caused.

Thanks,

ps1

[Meguro]

Is there anyone else out there fed up with the statement, "shotokan is just a sport"?!?!?

Muay Thai is just a sport. I hardly ever hear kick boxers complaining that what they do is misunderstood.

What karate has in general, and Shotakan has in particular, is appeal for people with many different objectives in their training. Think about it. In any dojo you've got kata people, self-defense-types, competition types all in the same room training the same way, each waiting for their 15 minutes of class time. This generalist approach will give you a minimum level of competency in all disciplines.

When the activity becomes a sport, the training is changed dramatically. All the extraneous stuff is stripped away leaving only the elements you need to win according to the rules of the game. If the game is point fighting, you will excel in point fighting for sure, which may but not always give you skills to succeed in full contact or elsewhere. If the competition is kata, you'll have nice form, whether or not that translates into fighting ability is something else. If the competition is Muay Thai, you might develop into a good striker, but might totally suck when the competition is MMA.

What the training time is devoted to will determine what you excel in.

Edited May 26, 2006 by Meguro

[Yasutsune Makoto]

Good posts, thank you.

I want to point out that it IS in fact being rediscovered! There ARE schools out there that realize that as important as budo is, it's not the only reason to practice punching and kicking. The meanings that have been lost, I feel, need to be resurfaced. I know that there is little need for an art such as shuri-te, with all of it's brutality, but that doesn't mean those in the martial arts should not understand the devastating power, the control of our minds and bodies, and the internal discovery to be gained by plunging into the deepest depths of why we practice martial arts. "Sport" competition is valuable in the way it develops speed, strategy, timing, and sportsmanship. However, there are so many organizations that train ONLY to put out good point fighters. This is where the flaw is. In all systems of karate, the things we practice are to turn us into weapons, and knowing how, and in what way, is crucial to a complete understanding of our art and life-style... just a thought.

[Traditional-Fist]

What I want to know is who out there, other than me, practices Shotokan and uses it in contact situations? Who attends or teaches at a dojo where students learn combat, power in jiyu kumite, and not just MC Dojos.

Shotokan-Ryu, as practiced by the Japanese Selfdefense Police is a very contact oriented and effective form of Shotokan. The sparring is full contact with light pads worn on the hands. Fist contact is allowed to the face.

[NinTai]

PS1

I think I need to clarify that my example was a specific one drawn from

the Shotokan history. Itosu, one of Funakoshi's teachers developed the

Pinan series oftern refered to as "school boy karate" because it was used

to introduce karate into the school system.

I must also make the distinction that I never used the term "martial art":

"The "mother art" that Shotokan came from was a "life protection art".

Martial means "of or having to do with war" karate and other such arts

where civilian forms of self defense. What Dreager was refering to were

the battlefield combat arts of feudal Japan.

"So for any modern day martial artist to say that another is studying only

sport and not "combat" is a little hipocritical. It shows a lack of understanding of the past."

I have to repectfuly disagree. There is a certain way that someone trains

for sport that would be completely inapropriate for "combat" (just to use

the term). To see this and point this out is just being observant.

Unfortunatly I have to run but i'll post more later.

Good topic, Good posts.

[Eugeu_Ryu_Stylist]

I train for combat, not tournaments. I have Full - Contact sparring every other day.

[NinTai]

Eugeu_Ryu_Stylist

Please, if you will define "full contact sparring"

and what you define as "combat".

Thanks