What can TKD learn from Karate, and vise versa?

[alsey]

i once went and watched a TKD class just out of interest, and it was very similar to shotokan. they did do a bit more kicking than we did, especially in sparring, but the basics were pretty much the same.

i don't know enough about TKD to suggest anything that the two styles could give to eachother, but they do seem very similar.

[DancingSteve]

I have trained in Shotokan since about 1987, still only a Shodan only because most of my training since 93 has been intermittent including teaching beginner classes here and there for extra money and trying to maintain a moderate level. When I was heavy into training I was very much into competition in Canada in the early 90's in Shotokan.

Over the years I have also tried out some TKD classes and even worked under a guy who taught a self-defense program that was TKD based.

The MAJOR differences have already been pointed out...I'd like to point out some minor differences that I believe point to something more fundamentally opposite in these styles.

TKD wins hands down in kicks...when sparring TKD practitioners..I can RARELY get past that front side 'push away' kick. I'm just not that adept at anticipating it, and I'm wading in trying to nail that gyaku-zuki! But in all honesty, unless the TKD guy is really good...I'd say black belt on up, theres absolutely no connection in their stance..so If I wade in..maintaining my strong karate stance and root to the floor..they can kick me in the stomach, and I proceed to push them off their feet to the floor. The connection between the upper body and lower body TO ME...is lacking a lot. This is especially evident in the weak hand techniques....and very painfully evident when you make the crossover from trad TKD to sport TKD. Sport TKD is all about getting that kick out there fast and loose and making contact to the target area...but is it really a good kick? Like a previous poster said..it had slowed and weakened quite a bit by the end of the kick and it was easily avoided and countered.

Also..now Im going to ramble a bit more..the katas..I learned the first few TKD katas and every time I 'turned' or shifted directions in a TKD kata...it felt so completely wrong. If I am facing the flags in a dojo..and I do ANY kata..I always turn to the 'inside' of my kata if that makes any sense. In TKD katas they routinely 'turn their back' on the group of attackers you are supposedly defending against. In other words..they turn to the outside, coming back into the circle. I KNOW there is bunkai to explain it..but its opposite.

It was also attempted to correct me on my side kicking technique. If I am in a horse stance (kiba dachi) and am going to side thrust with my right leg. I cross my left foot IN FRONT of my right...hips do not turn left or right...bring my right foot straight up..and deliver my side thrust kick. When I took a TKD class..they explained it the opposite way. TKD way was cross the supporting leg BEHIND the kicking leg. Try it...your hips are now facing sort of to the left...now you lift your right leg up and try to use the twisting of your hips to put more force into your kick. I dont know about you...but I have NO stability when I do it the TKD way...and by the way I knocked that instructor on his buttocks when I showed him the Shotokan way... At the core of this...its OPPOSITE.

Now if you've read this far..why not finish it out. When Japan occupied Korea..they forced them to take Japanese Karate...when the Japanese finally left...I THEORIZE...that a lot of things were directly made OPPOSITE of what the Japanese were teaching..to spite them. They've since been incorporated into the art and subsequently thats why they are there.

Love me, Hate me..Flame me. Either way. It makes sense in my little world.

Thanks for listening

DancingSteve

[alsey]

It was also attempted to correct me on my side kicking technique. If I am in a horse stance (kiba dachi) and am going to side thrust with my right leg. I cross my left foot IN FRONT of my right...hips do not turn left or right...bring my right foot straight up..and deliver my side thrust kick. When I took a TKD class..they explained it the opposite way. TKD way was cross the supporting leg BEHIND the kicking leg. Try it...your hips are now facing sort of to the left...now you lift your right leg up and try to use the twisting of your hips to put more force into your kick. I dont know about you...but I have NO stability when I do it the TKD way...and by the way I knocked that instructor on his buttocks when I showed him the Shotokan way... At the core of this...its OPPOSITE.

just now, trying it with putting the supporting leg behind the kicking leg, it makes me want to turn and do a back kick instead of a side kick. do all TKD people do it this way?

Now if you've read this far..why not finish it out. When Japan occupied Korea..they forced them to take Japanese Karate...when the Japanese finally left...I THEORIZE...that a lot of things were directly made OPPOSITE of what the Japanese were teaching..to spite them. They've since been incorporated into the art and subsequently thats why they are there.

interesting theory, i've never heard anything like that before.

[niel0092]

Having witnessed several knockouts, busted teeth, and a fractured orbital from so called "weak" TKD kicks, I can only shake my head at what some of you have seen in other TKD practioners. I doubt any of the recipiants of those kicks would agree with you. It really does depend on your instuctors and focus of the school I guess.

Train hard everyone!

OSU!

Pil Sung!

[niel0092]

Oh, and welcome to the boards DancingSteve! Great first post. I really enjoyed reading it.

[bushido_man96]

I have trained in Shotokan since about 1987, still only a Shodan only because most of my training since 93 has been intermittent including teaching beginner classes here and there for extra money and trying to maintain a moderate level. When I was heavy into training I was very much into competition in Canada in the early 90's in Shotokan.

Over the years I have also tried out some TKD classes and even worked under a guy who taught a self-defense program that was TKD based.

The MAJOR differences have already been pointed out...I'd like to point out some minor differences that I believe point to something more fundamentally opposite in these styles.

TKD wins hands down in kicks...when sparring TKD practitioners..I can RARELY get past that front side 'push away' kick. I'm just not that adept at anticipating it, and I'm wading in trying to nail that gyaku-zuki! But in all honesty, unless the TKD guy is really good...I'd say black belt on up, theres absolutely no connection in their stance..so If I wade in..maintaining my strong karate stance and root to the floor..they can kick me in the stomach, and I proceed to push them off their feet to the floor. The connection between the upper body and lower body TO ME...is lacking a lot. This is especially evident in the weak hand techniques....and very painfully evident when you make the crossover from trad TKD to sport TKD. Sport TKD is all about getting that kick out there fast and loose and making contact to the target area...but is it really a good kick? Like a previous poster said..it had slowed and weakened quite a bit by the end of the kick and it was easily avoided and countered.

Also..now Im going to ramble a bit more..the katas..I learned the first few TKD katas and every time I 'turned' or shifted directions in a TKD kata...it felt so completely wrong. If I am facing the flags in a dojo..and I do ANY kata..I always turn to the 'inside' of my kata if that makes any sense. In TKD katas they routinely 'turn their back' on the group of attackers you are supposedly defending against. In other words..they turn to the outside, coming back into the circle. I KNOW there is bunkai to explain it..but its opposite.

It was also attempted to correct me on my side kicking technique. If I am in a horse stance (kiba dachi) and am going to side thrust with my right leg. I cross my left foot IN FRONT of my right...hips do not turn left or right...bring my right foot straight up..and deliver my side thrust kick. When I took a TKD class..they explained it the opposite way. TKD way was cross the supporting leg BEHIND the kicking leg. Try it...your hips are now facing sort of to the left...now you lift your right leg up and try to use the twisting of your hips to put more force into your kick. I dont know about you...but I have NO stability when I do it the TKD way...and by the way I knocked that instructor on his buttocks when I showed him the Shotokan way... At the core of this...its OPPOSITE.

Now if you've read this far..why not finish it out. When Japan occupied Korea..they forced them to take Japanese Karate...when the Japanese finally left...I THEORIZE...that a lot of things were directly made OPPOSITE of what the Japanese were teaching..to spite them. They've since been incorporated into the art and subsequently thats why they are there.

Love me, Hate me..Flame me. Either way. It makes sense in my little world.

Thanks for listening

DancingSteve

Welcome to the forums!

Ok, you make some good points here. As for the way the TKD school has you do things, the main reason they don't feel right to you is because your body is probably not used to doing them that way yet. I can do the side kick in both manners that you describe, and have not had problems with them.

I agree with you as far as the point style kicks go. I don't care for them, and don't normally perform them in that manner.

I like to use hand techniques in sparring, and try to punch when I get a chance, although they are usually hooking types of punches to the chest and kidneys when I get in close.

As far as the weak base goes, it may be just the way the instructor learned to fight. A lot of TKD schools spar with an upright stance, much like a boxer would, just a lot of TKD people don't keep their hands up, especially the Olympic style competitors. Also, sport style doesn't usually score punches, so that is a detriment as well.

As for getting around that front leg side kick, try stomping the ground with your front leg, and then see if they throw it. If they do, side-step inside at a 45 degree angle, and then go get 'em!

Thanks for the post. As for the comment on the Japanese occupation, I agree 100% with that.

[Akaratechick]

Yes, TKD has pretty cool kicks, but you have to have the flexibility of a ballerina to kick above the solarplexis. Then you lose some speed and power. Keep it low then it looks alot like karate. TKD has evolved alot where they are teaching many more hand techniques as well. I think the styles are quite similar still. And I have had a hard time getting around the infamous side kick that meets you as you come in on your opponent too.

[bushido_man96]

Yes, TKD has pretty cool kicks, but you have to have the flexibility of a ballerina to kick above the solarplexis. Then you lose some speed and power. Keep it low then it looks alot like karate. TKD has evolved alot where they are teaching many more hand techniques as well. I think the styles are quite similar still. And I have had a hard time getting around the infamous side kick that meets you as you come in on your opponent too.

You don't have to be as flexible as a ballerina to kick high in TKD, you just have to have good flexibility, along with some leg strength. It isn't really as difficult as it would sound. I am fairly portly, and kick high fairly well. I am not a TKD champion by any stretch of the imagination, but I do fairly well.

I try to do a lot of MA related reading, because I love to do the research. In many older TKD books, there are mention of many different hand techniques, along with the kicks. I think the discrepancy in the amount of hand techniques comes from the type of instructor, and whether they gravitate more to the sport side or not.

[bushido_man96]

Oh, yeah, I just remembered the question about the back kick. I never really do a back kick, or I don't think I do. When we side kick, we try to roll our hips over to add more power to the kick, which is where I think many are calling it a back kick. However, I try not to let my back face the opponent, so I don't think of it so much as a back kick.

If I am trying to "jab" with a side kick, I will not roll the hips as much, but I still try to let my base foot pivot, to save my knees.

[Akaratechick]

That was actually a joke about the ballerina bit, sorry I should have made myself clear. Sometimes I write as if everyone can understand what I am thinking Having been in TKD and MMA it seems to me that TKD requires more flexibility that some other styles due to the high kicks, I have seen a lot of people struggle with especially front snap and roundhouse kicks above the groin area due to tightness. It does not make you any better of a martial artist if you can kick high but if you can kick high, fast, and with power then that is something else. The kicks aren't just pretty they are effective if you can do them well. Your build doesn't always weigh into it either as we have a black belt in our class who is about 6'2 and very stocky and on a bad day can kick above his head so that is what I meant