Weapons training practical?

[Sohan]

Weapons training can translate to other implements if you understand your training methodology. You never know what potential fighting tools you may have at your disposal, and someone who is adept at using the various MA weapons should be able to translate their skills to what's available. Watch any Jackie Chan movie to see what I mean--sure, it's entertainment, but he creatively shows what can be done with what's at hand.

With respect,

Sohan

[Holland]

How does holding a sai, tonfa, bo increase my punching power? My kicking power? Mechanics of throwing a proper sidekick, roundhouse kick, punch etc etc should be practised as such not the other way around. I can see how some of the motions could "mimic" a punch or kick but the actual performance is quite different.

Have you never used a pair of sais or tonfa? I am going to assume you have not. First if you use a pair of sais for more than half an hour rigorously, then you will feel how much it works out your wrists and forearms. Same for Tonfa...a great arm workout.

Does this not add to your punching power?

Punching or stabbing with a sai is not all that different that punching without one. Moreover the focus expended on using a weapon correctly can only enhance and improve your open hand kata. I see it every day at the dojo I run. Students who learn weapons become better karatekas and the ones who skimp on their weapons training never refine certain techniques.

Now I am not coming at this as an incompetent buffoon...given, my original style of karate was Isshinryu...which is somewhat weak on kobudo. BUT in recent years I have extended by training by working out with a local Kobudo master who has taught me a ton of great weapons techniques.

Plus I think that you are totally thinking inside the box when it comes to weaponry. Have you ever wielded a pair of wooden tekkos? If you can not see the similarity in open hand technique and tekko technique then you are of course blind.

Do with your training as you will though. I do not train with traditional weaponry to fight with it. But then again, I do not take karate to fight either...as through training I have found a peace that allows me to avoid such confrontations.

Basically there is only a slightly larger chance that on a daily basis that I will have to put the beat down on someone with my bare hands and feet than there is that I will have to do likewise with a pair of tonfa.

None the less, I train at both disciplines very hard.

[daizyblackbelt]

daizyblackbelt wrote:

however, training with the bo and sai in the yamanni-ryu style has made me question certain concepts of karate and explore the limits of my empty hand fighting and kata.

How do they question your concepts of karate?

as sohan said:

Interesting you say this. I have always seen weapons training as an extension of the natural body, and the drills and forms to perform weapons work as being similar to open handed work. However, Toshihiro Oshiro, of Matsubayashi Shorin-Ryu fame and a student of Shoshin Nagamine, has said that this is a misconception. He says empty kata was designed for just that, empty hands, and weapons footwork and stances should be different from that of empty hand fighting. He claims weapons come with "their own power" and that the weapon tells you how to move, not the other way around.

I am studying yamanni-ryu bojutsu and saijutsu, that is, the style taught by sensei Toshihiro Oshiro (though unfortunately i am not learning from him directly). it is absolutely fascinating. but the mechanics of movement, striking, etc are all completely different from traditional karate. (this is where having done karate for two thirds of my life becomes a drawback...).

for example a lunge punch with a sai in your hand (pointy end in, hitting with the handle) is done by putting your entire weight behind it, hips open, body almost completely sideways. terrible form in karate, yet extremely effective. this got me to thinking, "what would happen if i punched that way in karate?", and also about moving the way sensei oshiro moves while doing kata. his grace is astouding, flowing from one move to another, generating more power than i can hope to. if you ever get the chance to see sensei oshiro perform a weapon kata, i suggest you take advantage of the oppotunity.

while i do not apply what i've learned my traditional kata, it has opened my eyes to fact that there are many different ways to to simply move and different ways of striking than those i was taught.

i hope that answers your question. for more:

http://www.oshirodojo.com/kobudo.html

[Andrew_Patton]

Martial arts weapons (mainly japanese/okinawan/chinese) training pertains to the weapons that the people of old had at their time. If you want to complain that using nunchaku, tinbe or sai isn't practical, take five minutes and think about adapting to today. Think about say, the nunchaku, let's just try and think about something most everyone carries around w/ them that applies to it, oh let's replace carrying nunchaku with a good stout belt. Can you use a belt to whoop on someone without learning nunchaku? sure, but the principles learned when training nunchaku apply directly. Howabout tekko/techu easy, if you're carrying a lighter, your keys, whatever use it with the same principle.

Everytime I hear someone questioning kobudo's application it's always bo/sai but still those techniques easily apply bo and sai can be applied to sticks/poles/pipes (not something you'd readily find but, it can be applied to that, and definately not something you'd carry) but, as with everything else, kobudo has it's place, and it's place isn't mearly "looking good twirling ancient weapons" you can apply the techniques, it's just a little bit of looking outside the box

[glockmeister]

Andrew, you bring up some very good points. I look at weapons training as a discipline and discipline is good. Also various types of weapons training increases your knowledge and use of angles and mody mechanics that can be crucial in a fight. That being said, no, I don;t see just how important it is to learn how to fight with a Katana blade or long sword. I honestly can't see where or when i would ever need to use one, but even though I don't find it practical for me. I think it is neat to watch.

[Anbu Alex]

use an umbrella like a katana or a stick

[elbows_and_knees]

Have you never used a pair of sais or tonfa? I am going to assume you have not. First if you use a pair of sais for more than half an hour rigorously, then you will feel how much it works out your wrists and forearms. Same for Tonfa...a great arm workout.

Does this not add to your punching power?

Punching or stabbing with a sai is not all that different that punching without one. Moreover the focus expended on using a weapon correctly can only enhance and improve your open hand kata. I see it every day at the dojo I run. Students who learn weapons become better karatekas and the ones who skimp on their weapons training never refine certain techniques.

while that will help your punching, there are other and most likely more efficient ways to do it than learning to use a weapon. It just so happens to be a side effect of using a weapon.

[elbows_and_knees]

In all honesty, while you CAN modify weapons training for everyday items - umbrella for katana, cane for a jo, etc. IMO that's still not practical. for practicality, knife fighting, OC spray, etc. are what you should look into.

[Holland]

Guess what it comes down to is that I do not train weapons to kill people with a nunte bo. But then again, I do not train karate to kill people with my bare hands either.

[ZR440]

What I haven't read from anyone who is is a proponent of weapons training is how you have a lesser chance in knowing how to defend against an armed attacker if you have very little experience with weapons in the first place.