Unforgivable Rules

[YoungMan]

Even committing a criminal act does not necessarily mean you will be kicked out. It does mean you will most likely never test above 3rd Dan, because Instructors are expected to live honorable lives.

I've known Instructors who were not exactly examples of upright morality who are still around. As I said, getting kicked out is serious and not easy to do. I think a few black belts have gotten the boot for going behind their Instructor's back.

[usc96]

The only instance of someone getting the boot that I am aware of involved theft of intellectual property.

What are the details here? Did someone steal an idea and patent it behind someones back?

[the undead shall feast]

I know that my sensei always warns his students about doing drugs and joining gangs. I think those would be grounds for expulsion

so, if someone say enjoyed a marijuana cigarette from time to time, they'd get expelled?

[Elky]

yes, harming an instructors child during a drill or sparring

More so than harming anyone else? That's a bit dodgy.

[AngelaG]

I'm surprised how any people have said that training elsewhere would get them kicked out. I would not kick any of my students out for training elsewhere, if they can find something useful in their cross-training then good for them!

Things that would get students into serious trouble:

Turning up drunk, or high.

Bullying or deliberately hurting someone in the dojo

Violence (not including self-defence)

Stealing from us or the other students

Bringing the club into disrepute

[Montana]

The only "Unforgivable Rule" I really use is...If you start a fight, verbally or physically, and I find out about it...you're done...period!"

Of course, someone molesting a child, beating a spouse, etc...they're gone too. I don't need to tell people that. I used to have a sign over my desk that said I reserved the right to teach whoever I want, whenever I want, and also to NOT teach whoever I want for whatever reason I wanted.

Edited August 14, 2007 by Montana

[Ottman]

I'm surprised how any people have said that training elsewhere would get them kicked out. I would not kick any of my students out for training elsewhere, if they can find something useful in their cross-training then good for them!

Seeing all these posts about not training elsewhere without your instructors permission has me thinking, and I was involved in a situation like this recently, so I now want to discuss a little bit. (If this should be moved to a different thread, would a KF Sensei, please let me know?)

I've heard a lot of mixed stories over instructors with students training elsewhere. It always surprises me when instructors kick students out for training at another dojang. Sure it may be considered disrespectful by some if you are going behind your instructors back to train, but unfortunately, in our very capitalistic society, I have seen and heard of many instructors discourage, or threaten expulsion for no good reason, except that they want to keep the revenues from that student coming in. In my opinion, this is a little despicable of the instructor and not representative of a Martial Artist, (especially a master or an instructor).

Obviously circumstances can vary wildly, but what do you all think, in general, of a student exercising his right to seek the training he wants, and whether an instructor is justified in trying to control, in any way, the martial arts training of one of their students in this way.

Just to start off, it is my opinion that the student is paying for instruction in a particular art, and while it is common courtesy to discuss further training at a different school with his/her instructor, it really isn't the business of the instructor at all whether his student is cross training at a different dojang, unless that external training is somehow disrupting the rest of the instructor's students or class. The instructor is employed to teach his/her style of martial arts to the student, not to try and limit or control the total training the student is seeking. If it is the students' decision to try out different styles or different schools, that is the students' prerogative, and instructors who discourage it, especially for economic reasons are: first of all, a little insecure in their own instruction and business (IMHO), and secondly dampening their students' strive for experience and growth.

I for one, agree with AngelaG and would only encourage my students to cross train. These are the exact types of students that I want to work with the most.

Please hit me with any and all comments, or if there have been previous posts on this topic, I'd love to read them.

Thanks everyone.

[Montana]

I had a student a few years back (Don) that after getting his first of 3 brown belts started attending an Ed Parker Kempo class occassionally without telling me about it for a while. I had lunch with that other sensei now and then and that's how I found out about it. I had been suspicious anyway, as Don was trying different stances, blocks and techniques that we didn't use in my class...now I knew why.

I wasn't angry about it and have no problem if a student isn't satisfied with what I'm teaching, but I think I deserved to at least be informed about it after putting nearly 3 years into teaching a student.

[bushido_man96]

Here is a thread on the very topic you have asked about: http://www.karateforums.com/do-we-need-to-ask-permission-vt29499.html

[shogeri]

I do think that if I actively trained in another MA school, I would get expelled from my current one.

Now that is an unforgiveable rule that should never be enforced, rather than be broken.

That is so sad in these modern times.

Any felonious act would do it for most schools.