2 year black belts?

[younwhadoug]

i train with black belts and show the respect they deserve as a black belt. they show me the respect i deserve as an instructor. i don't have higher ranks in my classes unless they just want to train and if thats the case. they train. if i can't train them on their current rank level. then i will sharpen up their basic technique. not that they need it, but they appriciate the work out i provide in the martial arts atmosphere, and i'm not going to hesitate to tell them they need to lower their stance or kick higher and sometimes i think they are testing me anyways. my instructor is ath dan and everyonce in a while he trains in my class. which i appriciate. i feel like i have more to prove as a lower ranking instructor so i try to be the best i can be. if you were here i'd invite you to my class. but no offense, you seem like the type that would be insulted by the invitation. but the offer stands

[younwhadoug]

4th dan that is:)

[Sohan]

Let me use an example. Harold Long, Isshinryu, (and a few others I might add) received their black belt in 18 months as stated in their bios. In his perticualar case, being in the military and having military training (and also being of a military mind for protecting ones self) from what I understand spared quite well before he started martial arts (probably). From that point it was a matter of learning technique, kata and control of his mind, body and spirit.

My understanding is that there are a number of people who received BB in Japan or on Okinawa in 2 years or less.

Respectfully to all..

Patusai, you're speaking of people who have had previous martial or fighting experience, which is the exception, not the norm. I'm referring to someone who receives a BB in 2 yrs or less from ground 0, which is more likely the majority of the quick-rise BBs.

Regardless, there's no way most people could master 30, 20, or even 10 kata in 18 months with BB-worthy form unless their name is Bruce Lee. The Okinawans say it takes 1000 reps to be ready to master a kata, so just 10 kata would require 10,000 reps. At ten reps per day, that's a minimum of just less than three years. And that's ten reps every single day, plus all the other techniques one is required to know, for only ten kata.

Heck, we have more than 30 in our system. That's a lot of reps. I'm proud to say it takes my school 5+ years to reach blackbelt.

Respectfully,

Sohan

[bushido_man96]

Let me use an example. Harold Long, Isshinryu, (and a few others I might add) received their black belt in 18 months as stated in their bios. In his perticualar case, being in the military and having military training (and also being of a military mind for protecting ones self) from what I understand spared quite well before he started martial arts (probably). From that point it was a matter of learning technique, kata and control of his mind, body and spirit.

My understanding is that there are a number of people who received BB in Japan or on Okinawa in 2 years or less.

Respectfully to all..

Patusai, you're speaking of people who have had previous martial or fighting experience, which is the exception, not the norm. I'm referring to someone who receives a BB in 2 yrs or less from ground 0, which is more likely the majority of the quick-rise BBs.

Regardless, there's no way most people could master 30, 20, or even 10 kata in 18 months with BB-worthy form unless their name is Bruce Lee. The Okinawans say it takes 1000 reps to be ready to master a kata, so just 10 kata would require 10,000 reps. At ten reps per day, that's a minimum of just less than three years. And that's ten reps every single day, plus all the other techniques one is required to know, for only ten kata.

Heck, we have more than 30 in our system. That's a lot of reps. I'm proud to say it takes my school 5+ years to reach blackbelt.

Respectfully,

Sohan

You are talking about developing muscle memory here, which is something that can be developed over any extended period of time with any activity. I am not so sure it necessary to ingrain everything like that. Free thinking is important, too. Ater so many reps, everything starts to seem monotonous. I am not saying that developing muscle memory is bad, but is it required?

[tkdman102088]

great explanation sohan...in my opinion a black belt is not just how you fight. Sparring is something very small in the achievements that were once required and are still required by some martial arts schools. as useless as forms may be in some respects(even tho i do mine well and kno all of them for my belt level) they are part of being a black belt, so is self defense, self control, modesty, perseverence through troubles in life, and also chi power(boards are not broken by strength and technique they are broken by chi moreso than strength, if u break a board with strength you get hurt), all of these things are what makes a black belt, among a few others, if u cant fufill these things u dont deserve a black belt in the respects of most black belts(high ranking). these days alot of people are being promoted with a lack of skill, a black belt is not just a belt its a way of life and a mind set, so once again if you cant fufill what a black belt is meant to be by the old standards you dont deserve it. ive been doing tae kwon do for three years and am not yet ready for black belt and i go four days a week for an hour to an hour and a half classes, and i stay after for extra help. i am also a fast learner, an instructor and an athlete. and i can say i cannot fufill what a black belt should be. although i do posses respect for any black belt regardless if whether or not i think you deserve it...so no offense to ne one

[Sohan]

Bushido Man, I wasn't really referring to just setting muscle memory, though that is important. I guess for me it's more the importance of understanding the bunkai of the kata and being able to actually perform the applications in a real life setting. As Funakoshi said (I paraphrase):

"If you don't truly understand the bunkai of kata, you might as well be performing dance."

Anyone can learn the moves of a kata in a short period of time. I could learn 30 kata in 30 weeks, I'm sure. But applying the kata with mushin in a crisis situation takes a lot longer to learn, because one must break down the kata, analyze it, and internalize it, which is more than just mere repetitions of the forms. This is what I think a BB should be able to do. So I just can't see that 18 months is a reasonable time to receive a BB.

With respect,

Sohan

[Sohan]

great explanation sohan...in my opinion a black belt is not just how you fight. Sparring is something very small in the achievements that were once required and are still required by some martial arts schools. as useless as forms may be in some respects(even tho i do mine well and kno all of them for my belt level) they are part of being a black belt, so is self defense, self control, modesty, perseverence through troubles in life, and also chi power(boards are not broken by strength and technique they are broken by chi moreso than strength, if u break a board with strength you get hurt), all of these things are what makes a black belt, among a few others, if u cant fufill these things u dont deserve a black belt in the respects of most black belts(high ranking). these days alot of people are being promoted with a lack of skill, a black belt is not just a belt its a way of life and a mind set, so once again if you cant fufill what a black belt is meant to be by the old standards you dont deserve it. ive been doing tae kwon do for three years and am not yet ready for black belt and i go four days a week for an hour to an hour and a half classes, and i stay after for extra help. i am also a fast learner, an instructor and an athlete. and i can say i cannot fufill what a black belt should be. although i do posses respect for any black belt regardless if whether or not i think you deserve it...so no offense to ne one

You make a great point. Achieving a black belt is more than just performing a bunch of set moves. It is a development of character and the culmination of a period of personal improvement. So in this light, I just don't see how it is possible to experience this in 2 yrs or less unless you live, eat, and breath karate-do 24 hours a day.

Please know that I really don't want to offend anyone here. The topic was up for discussion and I am trying to express my viewpoint as concisely and respectfully as possible. And I certainly don't want to demean anyone who has achieved a BB, regardless of the time frame. They might hunt me down and kick me in the shins.

Respectfully,

Sohan

[bushido_man96]

Let's say that you enter into a non-ranking fighting system, like boxing. Now, if you practice for two years, should you be able to go fight? Because if you do, then you are going to gain some recognition; moreso if you win. Then people will begin to recognize you as having some skill and ability.

Is this any different than what a black belt in 2 years gains?

You make a good point. However, a boxer has fewer skills to master, and then these are repeated over and over again. Even the most basic martial arts style has many more forms and techniques to perform. Few people that I've met can fight after two years of traditional martial arts training as well as a boxer after the same period. The reason is the volume of training material. It just takes longer to really master and understand the principles for most people.

IMHO, of course.

With respect,

Sohan

I kind of agree with you, Sohan, but kind of don't. In a way I do because it is a lot of material to absorb, with the forms and all. But a Thai Boxer focuses on punching and kicking and movement, more than a boxer, and still can be prepared to fight in 2 years. It seems that perhaps our traditional styles (which teach self-defense, right?) get in their own way of becoming more efficient in the fight game. Now, I know that we aren't training people to fight so much as training them to defend themselves, but in the end the result is the same....you win or you lose.

[Sohan]

Let's say that you enter into a non-ranking fighting system, like boxing. Now, if you practice for two years, should you be able to go fight? Because if you do, then you are going to gain some recognition; moreso if you win. Then people will begin to recognize you as having some skill and ability.

Is this any different than what a black belt in 2 years gains?

You make a good point. However, a boxer has fewer skills to master, and then these are repeated over and over again. Even the most basic martial arts style has many more forms and techniques to perform. Few people that I've met can fight after two years of traditional martial arts training as well as a boxer after the same period. The reason is the volume of training material. It just takes longer to really master and understand the principles for most people.

IMHO, of course.

With respect,

Sohan

I kind of agree with you, Sohan, but kind of don't. In a way I do because it is a lot of material to absorb, with the forms and all. But a Thai Boxer focuses on punching and kicking and movement, more than a boxer, and still can be prepared to fight in 2 years. It seems that perhaps our traditional styles (which teach self-defense, right?) get in their own way of becoming more efficient in the fight game. Now, I know that we aren't training people to fight so much as training them to defend themselves, but in the end the result is the same....you win or you lose.

I struggle with this often. Should I just focus on Muay Thai, which prepares me more quickly, or should I continue the long range approach and spend my time on traditional karate?

Then I ask myself why I study karate, and it's for more than just self defense and fighting ability. There are aspects of self improvement that Thai boxing simply doesn't give me, though it may for someone else. I want more from MA than just the ability to inflict damage on another human being---I want the ability to NOT inflict damage on another human being.

Respectfully,

Sohan

[Heather Smyth]

I started TKD very young and I trained for a black belt for five years. Granted I was only 9years old when I recieved it I worked hard and earned it. My instructor had never had a child test for black and back then there was no such thing as a Jr. Black rank. She held me to the same standards as she did the adults and it took me two attempts to pass so I know she did not cut me any slack. Her reason for the no change was not anything physical because I was an awesome little girl. She would not promote me to black because she did not feel I understood what it ment to be a black belt. I was lacking the mental and spirtual aspect of Martial Arts. After I recieved the no-change I did a lot of reading, a Whole lot of praying, and I thought about it. Two weeks before testing I told my instructor that I wanted to try again for my black belt. She told me the decision was ultimately mine, but she said that the physical aspect was not a problem for me so If I thought I was ready mentally then go for it. When Ron Allman, 6th degree Master, asked me why I wanted a black belt at testing I replied to him that I did not neccessarliy want a Black belt that I just wanted to learn more. I went on to say that if they did not want to promote me to Black then that was fine, but please just let me learn something new something different. My instructior said that I finally understood something that no child should. Rank is just a color the true measure of a Martial Artist is knowledge. As it is all to overstated knowledge is power. It is my personal opinion that testing for black after only two years is something that very few people could do with full understanding of their art, but I am only one person with my opinion.