Iron Palm And Selective Breaking

[elbows_and_knees]

They don't theorise about them because they don't go deep enough.

or because there's no need. the time spent theorizing can be spent training.

They only scratch the surface. Eventhough they may, to the not so trained eye, be following kung fu principles such as relaxing during combat on one hand, on the other hand the may be doing extensive weight training which is a big no, no when it comes to chi cultivation, just an example.

that's part of my point - they AREN'T kung fu principles. They are fighting principles, period. Good principles transcend stylist boundaries.

In such a situation, what is there to theorise? The approach nowadays, at list to me and at list by some of the more modern martial arts seems to be "Hey look I am using kung fu principles but at the same time I am pumping iron using perhaps boxing principles for gaining power, AND I am using another half a dozen principles, infact whatever I can get my hands on principles. I don't theorise because I don't really know, in a detailed and deep way what I am doing, but on some level it seems to work for me, so I am happy with the results."

that's way too broad of a generalization and an overall insult to modern practitioners...

And I say if one thinks that it works for one and one is happy, then that is fine, but one mustn't mix "cross training" in principles for the real thing.

who is to say what "the real thing" is? IMO, modern training IS the real thing, not cultivation of some mystical force that you can't really prove the existence of.

People that I know who have trained real kung fu, the so called "external" styles included, with an authentic sifu have all, without exception, come to appreciate the significance of chi kung in kung fu training, including its role in generating power. I.e. No chi kung no kung fu.

but quite obviously, no qigong = no power is false.

Chi cultivation works within a set principles ,science if you like, that are the basis of chinese traditional medicine, shared by both Taoist and Buddhist branches of the arts (for the most part). The debates that I have come across have more to do in the effects/effectiveness of various exercises regarding both health and combat not wether Chi existed or what it was.

Those kind of debates are usually the concern of the western scientific community who so far are not taking the interest and making the research that they should be making.

the debates I've seen among practitioners are about what chi/ki/prana/punap actually is. I know some very traditional OMA who are convinced that it is merely body mechanics. CMA as well. I also know several CMA who are in the "bioelectricity" camp, and others who are in the "unexplainable internal energy" camp.

You are not likely to either unless you find a real master and provoke him enough to use it on you. Even that is unlikely because at high levels masters would not need to use that kind of power.

nobody will show it? that's all the more reason to doubt its existence.

It is more internal than most peoples suspect. It all depends on the deepness of ones sifu's knowledge and of course one's own patience.

it depends more on who you train under. some people's longfist is very external. others are more internal, like dr yang. Some are very shuai chiao intensive, while others, again, like dr yang, is mostly striking.

Both my sifus have it and eventhough, between them, they have been involved in many street/challenge fights, none of them had to ever resorte to rupturing or collapsing anybodie's hearts and lungs. You don't have to believe me on this one because, well, you don't know me nor my sifus.

so, you've never seen it? you just jave faith that they have it? If you saw it, in what capacity?

Did he hit you with full power?

didn't ask. Now, I DID see him touch a pressure point on my friends arm and make his entire arm go limp, but

1. it was a demo, so my friend wasn't resisting

2.wasn't more of a qinna demo than qigong.

It was interesting nontheless though.

It is a funny thing about kung fu. When you get to the level when you have developed your chi to a point that it really gives you immense power, you will probably never need to use it. That is because you have become so effective, after many years of practice and dedication that you can take care of most of your fights, even with "trained fighters", without having to resorte to the higher levels of skill.

then why have it?

Let me also stress what we are discussing here, and very amicably I might add, is not something that will be demonstrated to one by any master one runs across. I have come across a master, who when asked if dimmak existed, he said he didn't know. When I became his student, he admitted to its existance, he is my current sifu. I.E. Many real masters are not after publicity and sensationalism.

it's not about publicity, it's about preservation of the style. To many people, myself included, CMA already has a tarnished name. keeping things hidden is part of the reason why.

[ps1]

Anyone who says a boxer can not hit hard has never faced a serious boxer. People have died in the ring. Their entire sport is based around hitting hard. If ki was a necessary portion of it...they would train it.

I have trained in chuan fa for a 11 years and learned many ki techniques. However, as I have become more and more educated in biomechanics, kinesiology, physiology, anatomy and physics. I can explain everything I've seen.

I can bend a spear on my throat, not because of ki, but because of the angle it is placed. Selective breaking IS a parlor trick that requires placing a very small dense object (pebble, piece of wood ect..) below the "selected" brick. It will break at that point due to the disipation of kinetic energy across a small object creating a higher impact effect.

Ever see a "master" place a towel over an onlookers leg and then wave his hand over the towel and they experience heat. The towel usually has a small chemical device not unlike you put in your pockets to keep warm in the winter.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying there isn't ki. Just that much of what you see is nothing more than an illusion. Houdini spent his life trying to expose as many of these people as possible. Unfortunately, there will always be someone who is willing to exploit our desires to be something more than mortal. Only our souls reach that goal I'm sorry to say.

[Traditional-Fist]

or because there's no need. the time spent theorizing can be spent training.

If you are dealing with a profound system of martial arts, then not enough theorising will result in the wrong kind of training which can among other things result in a waste of time and an incorrect understanding of ones chosen martial arts.

They only scratch the surface. Eventhough they may, to the not so trained eye, be following kung fu principles such as relaxing during combat on one hand, on the other hand the may be doing extensive weight training which is a big no, no when it comes to chi cultivation, just an example.

that's part of my point - they AREN'T kung fu principles. They are fighting principles, period. Good principles transcend stylist boundaries.

Sometimes they do sometimes they don't. You can still have principles that contradict each other, see my post above. You can also have principles that are more profoundly dealt with in one style, while followed basically in another.

In such a situation, what is there to theorise? The approach nowadays, at list to me and at list by some of the more modern martial arts seems to be "Hey look I am using kung fu principles but at the same time I am pumping iron using perhaps boxing principles for gaining power, AND I am using another half a dozen principles, infact whatever I can get my hands on principles. I don't theorise because I don't really know, in a detailed and deep way what I am doing, but on some level it seems to work for me, so I am happy with the results."

that's way too broad of a generalization and an overall insult to modern practitioners...

No insult was intended. I was just stating a fact that is true as far as many modern practitioners are concerned.

who is to say what "the real thing" is? IMO, modern training IS the real thing, not cultivation of some mystical force that you can't really prove the existence of.

Your opinion is based on your own experience of kung fu and it is to be respected. So should mine, which is based on my own experience of authentic kung fu, which is my chosen style of martial arts.

but quite obviously, no qigong = no power is false.

Ok, no qigong = no internal power = no kung fu (even when "external" styles are concerned)

the debates I've seen among practitioners are about what chi/ki/prana/punap actually is. I know some very traditional OMA who are convinced that it is merely body mechanics. CMA as well. I also know several CMA who are in the "bioelectricity" camp, and others who are in the "unexplainable internal energy" camp.

The "only body mechanics camp" are-from my experience- in a small minority.

Wether it is bioelectricity or unexplained internal energy does not really matter in the end. It all comes down to internal energy in the end.

nobody will show it? that's all the more reason to doubt its existence.

Traditionally you are not really shown such things, however, you are not expected to just have faith in it either. You are expected to practice diligently and to experience it for yourself. Wether you chose to or not of course it is up to you.

it depends more on who you train under. some people's longfist is very external. others are more internal, like dr yang. Some are very shuai chiao intensive, while others, again, like dr yang, is mostly striking.

The higher the internal element, then the more authentic and high level the kung fu style/teacher [the traditional view, not just mine].

Both my sifus have it and eventhough, between them, they have been involved in many street/challenge fights, none of them had to ever resorte to rupturing or collapsing anybodie's hearts and lungs. You don't have to believe me on this one because, well, you don't know me nor my sifus.

so, you've never seen it?

I have seen it and felt it. I have been hit by external blows and internal blows and there is a difference. It has nothing to do with faith. It doesn't work that way.

I am also cultivating my own chi. I experience energy flow in ways that I have never experienced before and that is due to my qiqong practice.

1. it was a demo, so my friend wasn't resisting

And he wasn't really trying to hurt your friend.

2.wasn't more of a qinna demo than qigong.

At higher levels there is a lot of chi in chi-na.

then why have it?

Because you are perfecting a fighting art. Also, good chi circulation is good for your health , mind, body and spirit.

it's not about publicity, it's about preservation of the style. To many people, myself included, CMA already has a tarnished name. keeping things hidden is part of the reason why.

Some things will always be kept hidden , because to be understood well,they have to be experienced. Just like Chi.

[Traditional-Fist]

Anyone who says a boxer can not hit hard has never faced a serious boxer.

I am not saying that. I am saying the principles involved are different when you look at it from certain levels. A kung fu internal punch has a different kind of power from that of a typical boxing punch.

People have died in the ring. Their entire sport is based around hitting hard.

The few deaths that I have seen in the ring were due to accumulation of blows, cultminating in the knock out punch, and usually in the later stages of the fight. So there was no case of two equally trained fighters entering the ring where one of them gets hit and dies. This is at least based on the unfortunate deaths that I have seen in boxing, so there may be exceptions to what I have said.

If ki was a necessary portion of it...they would train it.

History seems to indicate that boxing trainers have never had any notion of ki/chi as it is understood by CMAs.

And again, the typical training principles for ki/chi cultivation does in many ways clash with boxing principles.

I have trained in chuan fa for a 11 years and learned many ki techniques. However, as I have become more and more educated in biomechanics, kinesiology, physiology, anatomy and physics. I can explain everything I've seen.

Your understanding of chi is ultimately based on the authenticity of your school and the depth of its kung fu instruction specially when regarding the internal principals.

I can bend a spear on my throat, not because of ki, but because of the angle it is placed. Selective breaking IS a parlor trick that requires placing a very small dense object (pebble, piece of wood ect..) below the "selected" brick. It will break at that point due to the disipation of kinetic energy across a small object creating a higher impact effect.

.....I'll add to that and say that you can alterate bricks, boards and rocks so that they can be broken relatively easily by certain "martial artists", i.e. Parlor Tricks. Of course, as you know, this doesn't mean that such objects cannot be broken, for real, by hightly trained martial artists.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying there isn't ki. Just that much of what you see is nothing more than an illusion.

I agree with you there. Traditional martial arts have been hijacked by Mc dojos, hence the existance of most (not all), of the parlor tricks, fakes, etc. leading to the present public view of traditional kung fu.

.....Unfortunately, there will always be someone who is willing to exploit our desires to be something more than mortal. Only our souls reach that goal I'm sorry to say.

I am afraid that I don't need palor tricks to convince me that I, and all of us for that matter, are something more than mortal.

[elbows_and_knees]

If you are dealing with a profound system of martial arts, then not enough theorising will result in the wrong kind of training which can among other things result in a waste of time and an incorrect understanding of ones chosen martial arts.

I have found that to be false in my experiences. I have yet to meet someone training in an indepth internal system that has any fighting skill beyond what a good external stylist has. Theorizing has not helped them much in that area. It may help them explain principles better to some, or possibly give them a deeper reason for believing in qi, but has not done much for their fighting.

es they do sometimes they don't. You can still have principles that contradict each other, see my post above. You can also have principles that are more profoundly dealt with in one style, while followed basically in another.

I don't disagree with that. but the principle is there, regardless - it's not unique to cma.

As far as weights vs chi goes, strength training produces residual tension in a relaxed muscle. sure, this is against most thoughts on qi cultivation. but, bodyweight exercises also go against that principle. In addition, constant tension in the muscle doesn't mean that the body can't fully relax. and since there is no possible way to strike without using the muscles (some say you use tendon strength, which is false) then there is always tension in the muscle while you are fighting anyway.

No insult was intended. I was just stating a fact that is true as far as many modern practitioners are concerned.

truth based on what? that's like saying all taji practitioners are tree hugging hippies...

Your opinion is based on your own experience of kung fu and it is to be respected. So should mine, which is based on my own experience of authentic kung fu, which is my chosen style of martial arts.

I've noticed that you say "kung fu" when referring to what others have trained and "authentic kung fu" when referring to your training. Why do you think yours is more authentic than anyone else?

Ok, no qigong = no internal power = no kung fu (even when "external" styles are concerned)

I don't think that's true. you even touched on it yourself. back in the day, styles were classed as high or low level based on its internal nature. thus dragon was considered high level. Tiger, having little or no soft qigong training was considered low level. IMO, that is backward though. In a fight between a tiger stylist and a taiji player, my money is on the tiger stylist.

Traditionally you are not really shown such things, however, you are not expected to just have faith in it either. You are expected to practice diligently and to experience it for yourself. Wether you chose to or not of course it is up to you.

Is that not faith? a person is not gonna spend an hour a day doing qi cultivation exercises if they don't believe in qi.

And he wasn't really trying to hurt your friend.

whether he was or not isn't the point. If my friend was resisting, I don't think he could've hit the same small point that he hit on him while he wasn't resisting.

Because you are perfecting a fighting art. Also, good chi circulation is good for your health , mind, body and spirit.

as stated before, that is not a necessary component in fighting.

[Traditional-Fist]

I have found that to be false in my experiences.

That is your experience, so fair enough. However, it is not mine and I practice kung fu.

I have yet to meet someone training in an indepth internal system that has any fighting skill beyond what a good external stylist has.

Again, that statement is based on your own particular experience. However, I have met people who I consider superior to any externalist (in a street fight and not necessarilly sports arena).

Theorizing has not helped them much in that area. It may help them explain principles better to some, or possibly give them a deeper reason for believing in qi, but has not done much for their fighting.

Your opinion. Suffice to say that theorizing helps - amongst other things - one understand various concepts and their relevance to what one is practising. This is specially significant when one's chosen art is as profound and rich as kung fu.

I don't disagree with that. but the principle is there, regardless - it's not unique to cma.

I don't disagree with that either, but the profoundness of the way certain principles are delved into in cma make the said principles' effects very different when compared with other arts that are supposed to follow the same principles. Compare relaxation in Hsing I, Tai Chi, or even the branch of Wing Chun I practice to that of the relaxation in Boxing or kIck boxing. In comparison the boxers, etc. are stiff as rocks. Yes the principle is there but the effect is different.

The same comparison can be made about rooting. However, going even further, many principles in kung fu deal with Chi and its flow through the dan tien through other chakras etc. These principles are none existant in many external martial arts. And for a kick boxer to say "I breath too so in some way I am doing qi gong", does not cut it.

As far as weights vs chi goes, strength training produces residual tension in a relaxed muscle. sure, this is against most thoughts on qi cultivation.

That is my point. This means many exercises done by boxers, kickboxers and mma-ists go against kung fu principles.

but, bodyweight exercises also go against that principle.

That is why some kung fu schools do not recommend frequent press/push up exercises. They do however recommend resistance exercises. YOu see, what is being achieved is muscle definition with minimal mass. Muscle mass inhibits the flow of chi. Now without theorizing about this same principle a practitioner who does not know better may spend years using the wrong weight training methods and then eventually end up "backtracking", for a few more years to fall back into kung fu principles, or otherwise stop training all together and join the local external MA club.

In addition, constant tension in the muscle doesn't mean that the body can't fully relax. and since there is no possible way to strike without using the muscles (some say you use tendon strength, which is false) then there is always tension in the muscle while you are fighting anyway.

To fully appreciate kung fu and its principles you need to practice it in an authentic school and for some years. Otherwise we end up discussing what works for you vs. what works for me and their principles. So, it is obvious that we need some degree of tension when we are fighting or even when we are standing up, or else we would just slump to the floor, but that is not the point. The point at one level is a boxers' idea of relaxation versus lets say a Pakua practioners.

truth based on what?

Truth based on what I have seen myself, including comments made by posters in martial arts forums including this one.

that's like saying all taji practitioners are tree hugging hippies...

You probably have a point there as far as many, but NOT ALL tai chi practitoners are concerned. I am sure that is exacly what some McTai Chi practitioners do and that doesn't surprise me when having seen the amount misunderstandings prevailant in the MA community as regards to Kung Fu, its concepts, theories, principles and practice. Not to mention the lack of good and authentic kung fu instruction.

I've noticed that you say "kung fu" when referring to what others have trained and "authentic kung fu" when referring to your training.

I refer to my training as authentic kung fu, because it is. In some cases I have no idea wether others train authentic kung fu or not, but in some cases I do, usually based on their own descriptions and comments.

Why do you think yours is more authentic than anyone else?

Mine is authentic kung fu wether it is more or less authentic than others' depends on what they say that they practice. If I see a practitioner of Wing Chun who has the body of Arnold Schwarzneger then I know that my kung fu is more authentic. If someone says that they practice Texan Wing Chun Do, then again I would know that what I was doing was more authentic. If someone has practiced kung fu for 5 years but says that his sifu does not teach chi kung then again the answer is the same.

Ok, no qigong = no internal power = no kung fu (even when "external" styles are concerned)

I don't think that's true. you even touched on it yourself. back in the day, styles were classed as high or low level based on its internal nature. thus dragon was considered high level. Tiger, having little or no soft qigong training was considered low level.

Believe me there are more internals and softness in Tiger than in any kickboxing, boxing, bjj and most if not all karate styles. There are also different Tiger styles such as the Black Tiger, Imperial Tiger and the forbidden style of White Tiger.

IMO, that is backward though.

Your opinion. Fair enough

In a fight between a tiger stylist and a taiji player, my money is on the tiger stylist.

Its your money.

Traditionally you are not really shown such things, however, you are not expected to just have faith in it either. You are expected to practice diligently and to experience it for yourself. Wether you chose to or not of course it is up to you.

Is that not faith? a person is not gonna spend an hour a day doing qi cultivation exercises if they don't believe in qi.

I want to take up badmington classes to learn badmington and I will be spending a few hours a week to learn it. I know if I practice it I will learn it. Badmington is a valid sport in our culture. Is that faith?

In China, and as I have stated before, chi, its cultivation and circulation have a cultural basis up to the point where their medicine is based on its concepts. So, for many chinese it is there already. All they are doing is learning to cultivate it, wether it is for personal health, martial arts or learning and understanding traditional medicine.

And he wasn't really trying to hurt your friend.

whether he was or not isn't the point. If my friend was resisting, I don't think he could've hit the same small point that he hit on him while he wasn't resisting.

That is your opinion. I believe some cma-ists can hit those spots in combat and some probably can't. It will all depend on how they were trained.

Because you are perfecting a fighting art. Also, good chi circulation is good for your health , mind, body and spirit.

as stated before, that is not a necessary component in fighting.

In kung fu a strong spirit together with a healthy and clear [zen] mind are extremely important components in fighting. This state of mind is achieved through meditation and CHI-KUNG practice.

[MizuRyu]

Well the training is going well. It's been a few weeks now and I notice some very obvious effects of the training. It hurt a bit for a little while but now it's fine, my hands are stiff immediatly after the drills but if I rub in some jow and squeeze it goes away quickly. Not only has it improved my hand's pain tolerance in the more sensitive areas, but it's REALLY increased my grip stength, which to me right now is the greatest perk.