Iron Palm And Selective Breaking

[elbows_and_knees]

do you REALLY think that you have this 'chi' and that only a traditional stylist can cultivate it using traditional methods?

Heck, people still debate on what qi actually is. But at least you didn't go where I thought you were going to go - rooting. Any decent powere puncher had good root. But boxers have a mobile root.

other internal aspects, like peng are done by externalists (sport guys) however, they don't theorize about it like CMA guys do, so they have no name for it. It's just part of having proper technique.

[MizuRyu]

Chi is the thing that lets Shaolin monks bend razor sharp spears with the soft of their throats, being that there are no muscles covering that area, just skin. Chi is SO much more than proper technique, it's a combination of things. I would see a good example as being the 'placebo' effect. Because you believe it can happen, it will. The body is the tool of the mind, chi is the merging of the two... at least that's how I'D explain it.

[elbows_and_knees]

Chi is the thing that lets Shaolin monks bend razor sharp spears with the soft of their throats

that is another trick.

As for 'qi', my background is traditional - I know what it's supposed to be. But I have yet to see any internal master hit harder than a pro hardpuncher, like tyson.

[Traditional-Fist]

do you REALLY think that you have this 'chi'

I am cultivating mine. The only way to understand chi is to cultivate and experience it.

and that only a traditional stylist can cultivate it using traditional methods?

To be honest, I have never heard of kickboxers, boxers or Bjj-ers or MMA-ists cutivating their chi, and if they do, I doubt wether they do so using none traditional methods.

So when it comes to reaching higher levels of chi cultivation I'd rather go to an authentic kung fu sifu, who is an expert in the area and will also know a fair bit about traditional chinese medicine, than go to Shamrock's Lions Den.

Heck, people still debate on what qi actually is.

They debate because they don't know. Those who know don't debate and just practice. And by the way, the only way to know, is to practice (Chi kune) and EXPERIENCE it for yourself.

As any good kung fu master, or text for that matter, will tell you, practice it, experience it and then you will know. It is not a question of fate, as is the case in many religions, it is question of personal experience.

But at least you didn't go where I thought you were going to go - rooting. Any decent powere puncher had good root. But boxers have a mobile root.

In kung fu the rooting and the chi element in delivering power are connected. I have said this before, boxers do not root the same way as kung fu fighters because their rooting works with their own concepts not with that of kung fu. I.e. The kung fu rooting functions within the concepts and methods of kung fu, which includes the delivery of penetrative INTERNAL blows, where the impact goes through the body causing internal damage, etc.

Also, kung fu practitioners have mobile roots too.

other internal aspects, like peng are done by externalists (sport guys) however, they don't theorize about it like CMA guys do, so they have no name for it. It's just part of having proper technique.

They don't theorise about Peng because they only scratch the surface of Peng, i.e. they take the general concept of warding off without delving into profound energy concepts and training that will expose them to more power than they could ever imagine. I do not believe for one minute that one could even mention the application of Peng by a TKD-ist in the same breath with that of a Tai chi expert.

[Traditional-Fist]

I have yet to see a boxer hit with more penetration than an internal master.

[elbows_and_knees]

and that only a traditional stylist can cultivate it using traditional methods?

To be honest, I have never heard of kickboxers, boxers or Bjj-ers or MMA-ists cutivating their chi, and if they do, I doubt wether they do so using none traditional methods.

largely, you won't. because they don't. However, I'm VERY curious about whether or not their training will cultivate it in a similar manner. Like I said previously, they use many of kung fu's named principles, but they do not theorize about them, so they are unnamed.

So when it comes to reaching higher levels of chi cultivation I'd rather go to an authentic kung fu sifu, who is an expert in the area and will also know a fair bit about traditional chinese medicine, than go to Shamrock's Lions Den.

I don't disagree with that. I don't care enough about qigong training to seek that, however.

They debate because they don't know. Those who know don't debate and just practice. And by the way, the only way to know, is to practice (Chi kune) and EXPERIENCE it for yourself.

I'm actually talking about debate among various cma and oma. people who do train it.

In kung fu the rooting and the chi element in delivering power are connected. I have said this before, boxers do not root the same way as kung fu fighters because their rooting works with their own concepts not with that of kung fu. I.e. The kung fu rooting functions within the concepts and methods of kung fu, which includes the delivery of penetrative INTERNAL blows, where the impact goes through the body causing internal damage, etc.

I haven't seen anything unique about kung fo to back that claim. But admittedly, longfist is not an internal style.

They don't theorise about Peng because they only scratch the surface of Peng, i.e. they take the general concept of warding off without delving into profound energy concepts and training that will expose them to more power than they could ever imagine. I do not believe for one minute that one could even mention the application of Peng by a TKD-ist in the same breath with that of a Tai chi expert.

where is this power? who has it? I've met dr yang jwing ming, a noted internal practitioner, among other things. He didn't seem any more powerful than anyone else I've seen. I've run across other cma too, none having this power of which you speak.

[MizuRyu]

The power of penetration: single strike kill... ichi geki hissatsu. To see the true purpose of a penetration strike you'd have to see someone die, fortunatly, this is illegal in most places. Breaking things is a test of this, since Karateka can't use people.

Back in my good ol' TSD days we had a kickboxer come in for a few lessons, and he wanted to try breaking. The instructor wouldn't let him, so he tried it himself at home.. didn't end up coming to any more lessons because he broke 4 of his metacarpals. The point in that is what I believe to be the fundamental difference between sport styles like boxing, and kung fu. Kung fu is built to kill, sport styles are built to beat the crap outta people. The trademark of Kung Fu and styles derivative of it is it's devastating power. Of course, there are always exceptions.

I haven't seen anything unique about kung fo to back that claim.

I have.. and chances are his hand is still in a little pain. The differences are great. Kung Fu seeks to deliver devastating, lethal power. I've yet to see a boxer drop his stance and lift a man off the ground with a palm strike.

[elbows_and_knees]

The power of penetration: single strike kill... ichi geki hissatsu. To see the true purpose of a penetration strike you'd have to see someone die, fortunatly, this is illegal in most places. Breaking things is a test of this, since Karateka can't use people.

I know what that is, but that's not my issue. WHO can actually KILL with one blow AT WILL? fights don't work that way, ring or street. That is the ideal only, like the japanese saying ichi go; ichi-e - one encounter, one chance. But in real life, it just doesn't happen like that. As far as I'm concerned, if I can't use it at will, then it's not worth having.

Back in my good ol' TSD days we had a kickboxer come in for a few lessons, and he wanted to try breaking. The instructor wouldn't let him, so he tried it himself at home.. didn't end up coming to any more lessons because he broke 4 of his metacarpals. The point in that is what I believe to be the fundamental difference between sport styles like boxing, and kung fu. Kung fu is built to kill, sport styles are built to beat the crap outta people. The trademark of Kung Fu and styles derivative of it is it's devastating power. Of course, there are always exceptions.

There must be A LOT of exceptions. Like bruce lee said, "boards no hit back". Breaking takes penetration power, but that really doesn't transfer to hitting a non-rigid and ever moving target quite as well. that's why you never see these one hit kills - not because they are illegal. The trademark of thai boxing is devastating power. And I've been hit harder by thai boxers than I have by any kung fu guy. Now, my old karate teacher, he had some serious power. But still not sufficient for these one hitter quitters you hear people talking about.

I have.. and chances are his hand is still in a little pain. The differences are great. Kung Fu seeks to deliver devastating, lethal power. I've yet to see a boxer drop his stance and lift a man off the ground with a palm strike.

I lift people with punches and knees regularly. At work about a month ago, somebody was resisting us. one of the other bouncers grabbed him and the guy tried to knee me. I stepped back, established a plomb, then shot my knee into his gut. Later that night, the bouncer that grabbed him told me that HE flew into the wall when I kneed the guy. It went straight through the target and knocked my buddy into the wall.

Heck, Last week I saw an untrained guy hit someone so hard he lifted them off the ground. The particular technique you use to do it is irrelevant; it's the end result that matters.

[Traditional-Fist]

largely, you won't. because they don't. However, I'm VERY curious about whether or not their training will cultivate it in a similar manner. Like I said previously, they use many of kung fu's named principles, but they do not theorize about them, so they are unnamed.

They don't theorise about them because they don't go deep enough. They only scratch the surface. Eventhough they may, to the not so trained eye, be following kung fu principles such as relaxing during combat on one hand, on the other hand the may be doing extensive weight training which is a big no, no when it comes to chi cultivation, just an example.

In such a situation, what is there to theorise? The approach nowadays, at list to me and at list by some of the more modern martial arts seems to be "Hey look I am using kung fu principles but at the same time I am pumping iron using perhaps boxing principles for gaining power, AND I am using another half a dozen principles, infact whatever I can get my hands on principles. I don't theorise because I don't really know, in a detailed and deep way what I am doing, but on some level it seems to work for me, so I am happy with the results."

And I say if one thinks that it works for one and one is happy, then that is fine, but one mustn't mix "cross training" in principles for the real thing.

I don't care enough about qigong training to seek that, however.

People that I know who have trained real kung fu, the so called "external" styles included, with an authentic sifu have all, without exception, come to appreciate the significance of chi kung in kung fu training, including its role in generating power. I.e. No chi kung no kung fu.

I'm actually talking about debate among various cma and oma. people who do train it.

Chi cultivation works within a set principles ,science if you like, that are the basis of chinese traditional medicine, shared by both Taoist and Buddhist branches of the arts (for the most part). The debates that I have come across have more to do in the effects/effectiveness of various exercises regarding both health and combat not wether Chi existed or what it was.

Those kind of debates are usually the concern of the western scientific community who so far are not taking the interest and making the research that they should be making.

I haven't seen anything unique about kung fo to back that claim.

You are not likely to either unless you find a real master and provoke him enough to use it on you. Even that is unlikely because at high levels masters would not need to use that kind of power.

But admittedly, longfist is not an internal style.

It is more internal than most peoples suspect. It all depends on the deepness of ones sifu's knowledge and of course one's own patience.

where is this power?

It is all around us.

who has it?

Both my sifus have it and eventhough, between them, they have been involved in many street/challenge fights, none of them had to ever resorte to rupturing or collapsing anybodie's hearts and lungs. You don't have to believe me on this one because, well, you don't know me nor my sifus.

I've met dr yang jwing ming, a noted internal practitioner, among other things. He didn't seem any more powerful than anyone else I've seen.

Did he hit you with full power?

I've run across other cma too, none having this power of which you speak.

It is a funny thing about kung fu. When you get to the level when you have developed your chi to a point that it really gives you immense power, you will probably never need to use it. That is because you have become so effective, after many years of practice and dedication that you can take care of most of your fights, even with "trained fighters", without having to resorte to the higher levels of skill.

Let me also stress what we are discussing here, and very amicably I might add, is not something that will be demonstrated to one by any master one runs across. I have come across a master, who when asked if dimmak existed, he said he didn't know. When I became his student, he admitted to its existance, he is my current sifu. I.E. Many real masters are not after publicity and sensationalism.

[TigerDude]

Again, if you can prove that Chi/Qi/etc is anything other than body mechanics, go to https://www.randi.org & win a million dollars.

I have not yet seen any proof that the physical manifestation of chi is anything other than physics. The hard-to-dimensionalize penetration does not immediately make sense, either.