Question about Martial Arts with a lot of joint locks?

[Anbu Alex]

i think alot of ppl see joint locks as the end all solution me personally i see joint locks as a way of disrupting a persons balance and rythem so then you can take advantage of that but like i said before i find them more effective if they are combined with something such as a strike or leting you get the throw but like mentioned before everyone is different so u cant rely on those locks i know alot of those wrist locks are hard to get on me cause my wrist are flexible from Breackdancing me i perfer joint locks that mess with body mechanics more so than pain compliance

[elbows_and_knees]

ShoreiSmurf,

You above statement is very true. (Arm bars are one of my favorites)

I forgot to mention that in my origianl post. thanks for identifying that.

Just some additional info for the one who started this post:

(Note: fighting should be a last resort, always).

You cannot block everything that comes at you while waiting for a hold to present itself - you eventually get hit.

If you are not aware of your surroundings (fence,building, cliff, water,...), you eventually run out of space to backup\avoid stikes.

You will eventually need to return fire.

Note:There are no winners in a fight. Even if you walk away unhurt (thats why I train), thats great. But then ther is a waiting game to see if you get arrested and/or get sued. Sometimes, this can't be avoided - but we as martial artist should be very aware of the consequences of our actions.

It always best to think of these things prior to your actions (what will you say in front of the judge?, will this prevent you from prison time? if not, walk away!)

From the context we are currently discussing - security, jailing, etc. you CANNOT strike back, unless the situation warrants. the assailant throwing wild swings doesn't necessarily warrant it. There have only been a few times where I have had to strike someone.

[Jersey Devil]

Hey: elbows_and_knees It looks like we meet again... lol

You do make a great point, holds can be more effective to control and move your opponent around. One thing to remember about joint locking, is everyone feels them different. It is just the way our nerv-systems are.

One of my black belts is like that I have seen some top instructors use joint locks on her and she just stands there and smiles.

Depends on what kind of holds you're applying to the person. An armbar will break the arm of anyone- regardless of how flexible they are. A choke will render anyone unconcious, regardless of how thick their neck is. Some people have flexible wrists, but theres a way to even catch those people. With their flexibility, you can bend their wrists and the move may fail, or you can twist their wrists and the move may fail, but if you bend and twist at the same time, you're sure to hurt them, and this holds true for just about any joint. Flexibility makes it more difficult to apply a lock on someone, but it wont make it impossible.

My instructor always says this:

"What's the difference between jiu-jitsu and Kenpo?"

He grabs the guys arm in a figure four lock and throws them.

"That's jiu-jitsu."

He stands the guy back up, punches him in the stomach, grabs his arm with a nerve pinch into a figure four lock, pokes the guy in the eye with his own hand and a fist, then throws him and stomps on (by) his head on the way out.

"That's Kenpo."

Grappling is effective, but you can't only grapple.

In my humble opinion.

What you stated is a matter of personal preference. Jiu Jitsu is much more than simply joint locks. Joint locks become more effective and usefull when you have control over someone, so natrually control is also an important aspect of jiu jitsu as well. As a result, many jiu jitsu fighters simply use their jiu jitsu to control people and elect to strike, rather than submit their opponents. As far as constantly battering your opponent to oblivion, you have that option whether it be in kempo or jiu jitsu. The only reason why you dont see that follow up in jiu jitsu is because when you choke someone unconcious, they're completely defenseless, so you dont actually need to train beyond that point.

[Brandon Fisher]

Thats the element that changes it. The bone breaking

[Treebranch]

I was wondering, like to hear what people thing. Ok, we have martial arts that are mostly striking, and then with the UFC, ones that shoot in, grapple you, etc...... Now I was thinking about the styles like Ju Jitsu, Eagle Claw, ok help me out, I am sure there are a few more.

First, are they effective? It could be a situation you have to control some one, you don't need to knock his head off with a punch, but also maybe taking him to the ground might not be be the best for that situation (well its ok for him to go to the ground, but maybe you should not).

Then I was thinking if I was using a style that had a lot of locks, what would my strategy be against a boxer, kick boxer, or a grappler.

I have dabbled in a little Ju Jitus (also used to watch a really good school before my JKD class) and for what I notice (not sure if other styles that deal with locks) really try to put a lock on there oppenent. Ok I under stand you usually try to fake him out with a kick or puch somewhere, but the lock seems to be the ends.

So do you guys feel a style like this is effective, practical, etc?

Oh one realy important question. Now I am in my 30's, now getting older, what's most effective, striking, locking, grappling. Just wanting to make sure I have a long martial arts life.

Well thanks, I would like to hear any thoughts anyone might have.

Yes. Striking, locking, grappling all together works great. Budo Taijutsu has it all. The interesting thing about BT is the strikes lead to locks, to throws, etc... It's a very difficult art to learn, but the benefits are great. If you want a life long MA to study BT is one of them, it's endless.

[Jersey Devil]

Thats the element that changes it. The bone breaking

Technically, no submission is designed to actually "break" a bone- people just say that and make that assumption because of the loud popping sound you hear.

Joint locks attack joints, and its often the muscles and ligaments that are damaged and torn and eventually lead to a dislocation.

Pain compliance moves are more like pressure points in the sense that you referred to them and those are what are exceptionally tricky to pull off on people, because some have them and some dont.

[elbows_and_knees]

If I have you in a straight arm bar, i can very well break your arm.

[Brandon Fisher]

Well a joint lock can break the bone depending on how far you push it. They may feel it and they may not but they will later. At least in a reality situation if that joint is broken they can use they limb very well. At least if it is a wrist, elbow or shoulder.

[Treebranch]

Thats the element that changes it. The bone breaking

Technically, no submission is designed to actually "break" a bone- people just say that and make that assumption because of the loud popping sound you hear.

Joint locks attack joints, and its often the muscles and ligaments that are damaged and torn and eventually lead to a dislocation.

Pain compliance moves are more like pressure points in the sense that you referred to them and those are what are exceptionally tricky to pull off on people, because some have them and some dont.

Joint locks are not pain comliance moves, they are meant to attack the joints and rip, tear or break them. Nice people use them as pain compliance and people that are not nice take advantage of that and as a result you loose the lock. Also joint locks in stand up is a way to capture balance and design to break unless the attacker has superb ukemi. If someone is "serious" your wrist, arm, shoulder joint will be blasted and useless before you have time to counter. That's why you see those Aikido guys flying through the air with a wrist lock throw or whatever. If they didn't do that, they'd be screwed.

[Jersey Devil]

Joint locks are not pain comliance moves, they are meant to attack the joints and rip, tear or break them. Nice people use them as pain compliance and people that are not nice take advantage of that and as a result you loose the lock. Also joint locks in stand up is a way to capture balance and design to break unless the attacker has superb ukemi. If someone is "serious" your wrist, arm, shoulder joint will be blasted and useless before you have time to counter. That's why you see those Aikido guys flying through the air with a wrist lock throw or whatever. If they didn't do that, they'd be screwed.

Agreed, but the problem is that standing locks are much more difficult to get than locks while on the ground. This is especially true of wristlocks, since your opponent has so many articulations at the wrist, elbow, and shoulder.

Im not saying they're impossible, just very difficult, even for experienced people.