a bad name for martial arts.

[elbows_and_knees]

I am not so sure why we call our arts "traditional." We try to make it sound like that was the way it was done thousands of years ago, when the arts were "founded." Most of the arts that you see have the word "do" attached to the end. This was not always so. "Do" means a way of life, or philosophy....etc. Sure most of you know this.

However, most of these styles started with an "ai" or "jutsu" (I think) attached to the end, which had a different meaning. It meant war, fighting, something kind of like that.....the exact translation isn't sparking me, but I have it in one of my volumes somewhere. Example: "bushido", as you all know, means "way of the warrior." "Bushai", simply means warrior. Bushido stemmed from the feel to lead a warriors' lifestyle after war was not needed, ie. be brave, have integrity, protect the innocent, protect your homeland, etc.

Anyways, when these fighting styles began to be put aside because of peace, occupation, replacement by firearms, or what have you, they were eventually preserved as the "traditional arts" that we know today.

These ancients didn't do forms...not in the fashion that we experience them today. They trained as armies, by drilling. They drilled all day, with weapons, with partners in hand-to-hand, etc. Ok, they may have practiced move segments to familiarize with the moves, but then is was on to drilling.

Boxing was lucky. It never got systematized. Sure it got some rules added to it, to make it competitive, but is has retained most of its applications.

The one thing that traditional martial arts has going for them is that they are more inviting to children and less aggressivley natured people.

yeah, technically that's true. after the tokugawa shogunate, all of that began to be shunned as there was no longer a need for warriors. BUT, the reason the arts of today are called tradtional stems from the fact that you guys are still wearing the gis, learning philosophy and hisory and using for the most part (when compared to modern arts) traditional style training methods. most of the modern styles today are completely devoid of these things, and they embrace newer training concepts. This delineation is what we have come to know today as traditional and modern...

a lot of the older styles - at least the chinese ones - DID do forms, but they didn't have the insanely high number that they have today. Many styles only had one or two forms. As styles begin to die out without being passed on, people began collecting forms other styles and teaching them for preservation reasons.

[UseoForce]

A lot of people here seem to be comparing boxing to "martial arts." Boxing IS a martial art.

[Sohan]

Technically, boxing, like wrestling, is a sport, not a "martial art".

Martial arts are systems created for use in combat situations, ie a street fight or wartime. Boxing arose out of a desire to "civilize" fighting and make it a sport to be bet on and viewed by the public.

I couldn't imagine going into battle with only boxing or wrestling skills at my disposal. They are extremely useful skills, but are incomplete for battle. It would be like Mike Tyson fighting an MMA fighter on the street. He would be lost even at his peak.

Respectfully,

Sohan

[UseoForce]

Technically, boxing, like wrestling, is a sport, not a "martial art".

Martial arts are systems created for use in combat situations, ie a street fight or wartime. Boxing arose out of a desire to "civilize" fighting and make it a sport to be bet on and viewed by the public.

I couldn't imagine going into battle with only boxing or wrestling skills at my disposal. They are extremely useful skills, but are incomplete for battle. It would be like Mike Tyson fighting an MMA fighter on the street. He would be lost even at his peak.

Respectfully,

Sohan

MMA fighter = Combination of boxing, muay thai, and BJJ. Which are ALL sports. So what are you saying?

You can argue semantics till the cows come home. Boxers train hard, fight hard, and hit hard. THEY are martial artists in my book.

[ebff]

Doesn't Muay Thai count as a martial art? As in, whatever was taught and still is taught to the thai soldiers?

[bushido_man96]

Technically, boxing, like wrestling, is a sport, not a "martial art".

Martial arts are systems created for use in combat situations, ie a street fight or wartime. Boxing arose out of a desire to "civilize" fighting and make it a sport to be bet on and viewed by the public.

I couldn't imagine going into battle with only boxing or wrestling skills at my disposal. They are extremely useful skills, but are incomplete for battle. It would be like Mike Tyson fighting an MMA fighter on the street. He would be lost even at his peak.

Respectfully,

Sohan

Boxing is a sport, but so are Muay Thai, and even other arts like taekowndo and some karate forms. Even MMA is a sport, just with fewer rules. Everyone who competes in any of the events that these "sports" put forward, is doing so in order to win. If you add this sense of competition to it, and make rules, then it becomes a sport in some sense of the word. Now, don't misunderstand me, I don't have anything against sports or competition. I enjoy all kinds of sports. In boxing, MMA, or Olympic TKD, there are rules involved to keep people safe, to an extent. None of these people are trying to kill anyone with their techniques. I don't think that "martial arts" exist so much now as martial sports do.

Bruce Lee didn't compete. He advocated strikes to the eyes, nose, groin, instep, neck, etc. He didn't want to dance with anyone; he wanted to put them down. If you were to fight him, you could bet that you could end up immoblized, or worse. In the end, however, it is hard to train like that. You could run out of friends real quick.

When men went into battle in medieval times, most of them were armed with weapons, shields, and hand-to-hand skills, including wrestling skills that included lots of "tricks" used to kill an opponent or immobilize them. Boxing and wrestling don't deserve to be knocked so badly.

[UseoForce]

A lot of Bruce Lee's training would be characterized as "sport."

Sport is good for training. Pretty much every martial art that has a sport form (boxing included) also has a "street" form.

[Sohan]

Technically, boxing, like wrestling, is a sport, not a "martial art".

Martial arts are systems created for use in combat situations, ie a street fight or wartime. Boxing arose out of a desire to "civilize" fighting and make it a sport to be bet on and viewed by the public.

I couldn't imagine going into battle with only boxing or wrestling skills at my disposal. They are extremely useful skills, but are incomplete for battle. It would be like Mike Tyson fighting an MMA fighter on the street. He would be lost even at his peak.

Respectfully,

Sohan

MMA fighter = Combination of boxing, muay thai, and BJJ. Which are ALL sports. So what are you saying?

You can argue semantics till the cows come home. Boxers train hard, fight hard, and hit hard. THEY are martial artists in my book.

I'm not knocking boxing. In fact it was what I first learned as a fighting skill, and remains my first love.

Remember that the "martial" aspect of martial arts refers to warfare. In fact, Webster's defines the word martial as "of or suitable for war" (Muay Thai). Also, the term "martial art" is defined as a system of self-defense that originates in the Asiatic region (MT and BJJ). Western boxing doesn't really make either category. But if you want to call it a martial art, it's really no skin off my nose.

But don't misunderstand me. Calling something a sport in no way diminishes its value as a fighting art. It just indicates that in its sport form it is not meant to be applied to war by itself.

BTW, since you brought up MMA, its interesting to note that the Japanese samurai of hundreds of years ago were probably the most complete MMA artists. Their training consisted of the 23 Arts of Samurai including everything from hand-to-hand to weapons training to grappling. Talk about a full-time training regime.

Respectfully,

Sohan

[Sohan]

... I don't think that "martial arts" exist so much now as martial sports do.

Bruce Lee didn't compete. He advocated strikes to the eyes, nose, groin, instep, neck, etc. He didn't want to dance with anyone; he wanted to put them down. If you were to fight him, you could bet that you could end up immoblized, or worse. In the end, however, it is hard to train like that. You could run out of friends real quick.

.... Boxing and wrestling don't deserve to be knocked so badly.

Interesting comments. I like what you say about martial arts vs martial sports.

BTW Bruce Lee did indeed compete. Good footage of him in a full contact bout in the documentary "Bruce Lee: A Warrior's Journey". He competed to demonstrate the superiority of his "way of the intercepting fist".

I think instead of martial arts, a better term should be "fighting arts".

Respectfully,

Sohan

[elbows_and_knees]

Technically, boxing, like wrestling, is a sport, not a "martial art".

Martial arts are systems created for use in combat situations, ie a street fight or wartime. Boxing arose out of a desire to "civilize" fighting and make it a sport to be bet on and viewed by the public.

I couldn't imagine going into battle with only boxing or wrestling skills at my disposal. They are extremely useful skills, but are incomplete for battle. It would be like Mike Tyson fighting an MMA fighter on the street. He would be lost even at his peak.

Respectfully,

Sohan

I guess that depends on what you mean by battle. I have barfights every night at work. I use only judo and bjj - sport skills. I had a knife pulled on myself and a coworker last night. still used bjj and judo.