Traditional or Competitions?

[Holland]

We do very few tournaments...my adults almost never compete.

Now, we do have a deal where my school and two other large okinawan karate schools (both shitoryu) get together twice a year and run a 16 years old and under tournament. But we break the kids down into groups of four and judge them in a small group...that way everyone wins something. It sounds kinda cheesy, but it really is a good set up. The fees are only 25 bucks and the kids receive pretty nice medals.

The whole thing about competing in tournaments is the fact that the whole process is way to subjective. I have had a classmate get knocked down by a korean stylist because he believed that student should not do tension breathing at blue belt (seiuchin) because in his style that is a black belt technique.

If a person goes to a tournament and takes it for what it is (a chance to do your katas in front of critics and play a game of tag in points sparring) then its all well and good. Some people get way too caught up in it though.

[Sohan]

I have never competed in karate (though I have in boxing). Never had any desire, because my experiences as an adult in real life satisfied any desire I might have to prove myself. Now a little older and hopefully a little smarter, I see the need for some to test their skills in a safe environment. But it does dilute what you learn and soften it. What you practice is what you will do when you are threatened for real. If you practice to look pretty or score points, then you'll likely look pretty in a real fight for about, oh, 3-4 seconds. Then boom. Reality.

Respectfully,

Sohan

[GOM]

Sohan- What if you practise both?

[lordtariel]

I suppose it depends on the rules of the tournament you are in. For us, points are graded on the following criteria:

Timing

Distance

Vigorous Application

Form

Zanshin(I hope I spelled that right)

Attitude

less than 100% any of these categories in any attack is given 1/2 point while less then 90% in any of the categories is no score. Head contact is dependant on the skill level of the fighters, light contact for everyone but black belts.

I think a tournament is about the most stressful of a situation that a student can safely be in. You can be a great martial artist, but if you've never actually been in an aggressive combat situation, odds are you'll choke. Just my couple of cents.

[Sohan]

Sohan- What if you practise both?

I don't see why not. My concern is that the body operates in a real fight the way it has been trained. If I've been trained to score points, that's what the body will remember.

There are plenty of people who do tournaments who can defend themselves just fine on the street. I suppose ever person is different, but I'd rather not have any quesswork.

Respectfully,

Sohan

[jaymac]

GOM, usually in this area, larger tournaments are open, mixed. I see alot of Tae Kwon Do, few Kung Fu, even fewer Kempo, and other forms of Karate. The tournament awards points along with awarded trophies. There are several tournament throughout the year. At the end of the tournament "season," points are totaled in each division and the individuals with the most points earned in the catagory are labeled, i.e. 2006 Adult Kata Championship for ages 29 and older. Now that sounds great, but it is really simple to do. Usually the winners, tournament all year long and at every tournament in the tri state area. So it is easy to accumulate points and ultimatlely win the championship. I have attended a few and done very well. I was listed in the top 10 for Pennsylvania after only attending 3 tournaments. So what does that tell you about the competition. Not that I am excellent at it, but that the first place winners in each catagory, competed at least 10 times to be awarded high marks. I lost my appetite in the whole thing. Nothing was traditional. All was flashy ineffective moves. Poor sportsmanship at all 3 I attended. Got a great compliment from a Gojo Ryu instructor though, he told me I did a great traditional representation of Bassai Dai. That meant alot to me. Anyhoo, when I read now that someone was ranked the state champion.. blah, blah, blah I think differently.

[GOM]

Jaymac - Why not look for a more traditional based Karate competition, rather than an All Styles tournament?

I see no benefit in entering and competing in a competition that doesn't have traditional Karate kata if you are a traditional Karate student.

[ps1]

My response here may get a little lengthy. I apologize in advance for this. I just have trouble with certian concepts of what is traditional and those that say competitions are not traditional. So I ask for your patients while I climb onto my soapbox momentarily.

I have seen many posts (along with having many live discussions) about how traditional their system is because they study kata "A through X" from Sensei, Guru, Sifu, Hanshi so and so. They often continue to point out how they have not changed anything they were taught, do not allow "fancy" uniforms and have very few ranks (if any). They do not practice point sparring or enter competitions because these things lead to skewed ideas of what the purpose of martial arts is and diminished lethality of the techniques.

Usually among my first question of these people is how does competition erode technique? Further, how does it deminish the liklihood of utilizing a lethal technique when the time is necessary? Of course the answer is, and it is correct, that you will fight as you train. That established...when is the last time anyone here had the unfortunate experience of practicing a "lethal" technique in full force application? By its very definition of being lethal, you can't practice it. Not at the level you practice the rest of your "non-lethal" techniques. If you practice good technique, you will compete and utilize good technique when it's needed. I find that any technique that can not practiced at full speed and force will always be less useful than those that can. Your body just dosen't execute them as quickly. I tell these people to choose their competitions more wisely, or even hold their own competitions within their school and by their own rules. If the technique is sloppy then, you can only blame yourself.

Competition is a fundamental truth of human existance. People constantly compare themselves to others. The desire to be "the best" subsides only with experience, understanding, and wisdom. It is the rare student who will not compare him/ herself with others. An instructor telling them not to do so does not change their desire. This lesson is usually gained only after years of attempting to be the best. It was common place even in ancient times for warriors to go to other schools in order to test their skills against others. Note that many of the great texts of the ancient masters boast of their ability to defeat others. As long as the instructor constantly points out that competition and points are not the aim of martial art training, there is no harm in it. It's a difficult thing to get in front of an audience and perform kata or spar (fight) someone who may wipe the floor with you or execute a pre-arranged self defense demonstration. I believe it to be character building.

Someone already pointed out how recent the gi and belt system are. Wearing a gi (white, black, or rainbow color) does not make a system traditional, nor does wearing street clothes make it contemporary (the same goes for rank and titles). It just demonstrates the preference of an instructor and sets a system of determining skill level in your school. I think we can all agree that a black belt in one school may not have the same skill set as a black belt in another. Same style or not.

What I have found to be common in "truly (my opinion)" traditional schools is a value of hard work, dedication, disipline, focus, patients, empathy, and self respect. Traditional schools are those that seem to be able to bestow upon a person the ability to critically evaluate their situation and attempt to take the course of action that is best for their well-being. They give people a warrior's mindset. So that "even when seated quietly, not even the roughest roughian dare set harm upon them. (excerpted from Soul of the Samauri) "

As I climb back down from my high horse and prepare for the retribution of those I may have offended I will say this, "tradition is what you make of it." Just because others do not share your tradition, does not make them non traditional. Just not your tradition.

To answer the question though...I am a traditionalist. But I do like to compete. I am just sure to compete in tourneys that have the rules I feel are important. Those are the competitions I suggest to my students if they voice interest. I certianly do not force competition on anyone though. People do enough of that themselves.

[Ilex]

This is interesting. I also believe karate to be a way of life and in KWF we focus on one finishing blow. I believe that it important to test these skills and competition is a healthy way to test yourself, and aid progression.

It is all very well preactising the moves, but if you cannot make these work then you surely are not progressing?

If you can fight and win against all in dojo fine, but then where do you go? Competition allows you to assess yourself against others outside of the dojo.

[Sohan]

Good post, pendakarshihan1!

Respectfully,

Sohan