Mixing shuri-te and Naha-te to create a new style

[Holland]

Isshinryu is a combination of gojuryu and shorinryu...so basically what we are talking about.

Supposedly Shimabuku taught Gojushiho early on, but got decided to drop it for Sunsu. There is alot of speculation on the reasons behind that.

Why shimabuku dropped Passai is not clear...it was reportedly one of Kyan's favorite kata. He did add a few of the moves from Passai into sunsu,(shimabuku created) but decided to ditch the kata on the whole.

If I were combining the two styles I would certainly put Passai back in...I would also put in Tensho for the naha-te lineage.

[Fairfax_Uechi]

How about more of a Uechi view of Sanchin? We combine the hard and soft into Sanchin and use it as the foundation of all we do in our style.

[P.A.L]

i love the Uechi ryu sanchin , about tensho and sanchin effects besides breathing i think sanchin works on muscles whiile tensho works on tendons. tensho is very much like crane tendons exercises.

[kurome]

Isshinryu is a combination of gojuryu and shorinryu...so basically what we are talking about.

Supposedly Shimabuku taught Gojushiho early on, but got decided to drop it for Sunsu. There is alot of speculation on the reasons behind that.

Why shimabuku dropped Passai is not clear...it was reportedly one of Kyan's favorite kata. He did add a few of the moves from Passai into sunsu,(shimabuku created) but decided to ditch the kata on the whole.

If I were combining the two styles I would certainly put Passai back in...I would also put in Tensho for the naha-te lineage.

Isshin-ryu may be a combination of Shuri and Naha, but it is not by any means pure. You're not exactly taking the best of each system if you're adding your own now are you? Not that I am at all prejudiced against Isshinka, as I study it myself, it's just that I am not all that fond of the changes that Shimabuku made, such as the increadably narrow stances and the arm position on blocks. Anyways, the reason I've always known for Shimabuku cutting out those kata is that he put them all in Sunsu. If you are versed in all of the Shuri kata, you notice that Sunsu contains elements from all of the major kata (discounting, of course, the kyu kata, which are actually included in the curriculum.) I am not sure about the Naha side of it, but I'm sure that Shimabuku included some of his Nahate into Sunsu.

On another note, I do believe I should change my last list, for it was foolish of me to forget Tensho. If I had Sanchin, I couldn't possibly leave out Tensho.

[Holland]

I was by no means calling isshinryu perfect or pure. I love some of the things that shimabuku did...like the vertical fist and the more natural narrow stances. On the other hand I dislike doing the opening moves of seiuching in a straight line and some of the other kata changes as well

I think Isshinryu is a wonderful style to go from white belt to about ni-dan in. Unfortunately with only 8 open hand katas and 6 weapons, there is not too much left to learn for isshinryuists after 2nd degree. This is why many of my old dojomates have left karate...it simply got boring.

As I am the type that thinks there is always something left to learn, I started training at a shitoryu school under an instructor that is a 5th dan in okinawan kobudo. I am on the verge of testing for sho-dan in that and I have incorporated it into my own classes. I also have started learning shitoryu open hand kata as well and I plan to incorporate that down the line too.

[Skeptic 2004]

A little known fact:

Miyagi Chojun was still training with Higaonna Kanryo when he met Itosu Ankoh. After observing Itosu's karate, he asked Itosu if he could train with him and learn Shuri-te kata. Itosu politely told him no.

Why did Itosu turn Miyagi away? Because he observed that Naha-te and Shuri-te were inherently incompatible. You couldn't mix the two without significantly diluting them because the two worked on opposing principles. And significantly diluting them would take away the effectiveness of both.

Naha-te's use of hara is completely opposite of Shuri-te (Naha-te generates power from the hara by lifting it for the osae; Shuri-te generates power from hara by dropping it for the osae). Naha-te's blocks are close-in, designed for upclose fighting; Shuri-te's blocks reach out to meet the opponent. Naha-te is inherently defensive; Shuri-te is inherently offensive.

Itosu told Miyagi that his Naha-te was very strong, and Itosu did not want to weaken him by teaching him Shuri-te. He told him to stick with Higaonna.

While Itosu did indeed train some Naha-te kata (Niseishi, Seisan), he "Shuri-tized" them. He turned the Naha-te moves into Shuri-te moves (for example, in Itosu-Seisan, stances that are normally Sanchin stances in Naha-te became cat stances for Shuri-te). If you were to mix Shuri- and Naha-te kata, you would end up either having to Shuri-tize them or Naha-tize them. Trying to do both...well...would be counterproductive.

Higa Yuchoku was one of Miyagi's strongest students and one of the most senior - had he stayed with Miyagi, he would have been the dai-sempai and possibly even ato-tsugi. When he met Chibana Choshin and saw Chibana in action, he decided to learn some Shuri-te. Eventually, he left Miyagi all together - there were no hard feelings since Chibana and Miyagi were friends. I'd venture to say that Higa Yuchoku left Naha-te because he couldn't reconcile it with Shuri-te and decided to go with just one.

This isn't meant to rain on anyone's parade. This is an interesting theoritical exercise. I'm just not sure how it would actually pan out in application.

[Patrick]

Hello,

I removed a post from this thread in error. It is quoted below. Sorry for the confusion. Thank you.

A little known fact:

Miyagi Chojun was still training with Higaonna Kanryo when he met Itosu Ankoh. After observing Itosu's karate, he asked Itosu if he could train with him and learn Shuri-te kata. Itosu politely told him no.

Why did Itosu turn Miyagi away? Because he observed that Naha-te and Shuri-te were inherently incompatible. You couldn't mix the two without significantly diluting them because the two worked on opposing principles. And significantly diluting them would take away the effectiveness of both.

Naha-te's use of hara is completely opposite of Shuri-te (Naha-te generates power from the hara by lifting it for the osae; Shuri-te generates power from hara by dropping it for the osae). Naha-te's blocks are close-in, designed for upclose fighting; Shuri-te's blocks reach out to meet the opponent. Naha-te is inherently defensive; Shuri-te is inherently offensive.

Itosu told Miyagi that his Naha-te was very strong, and Itosu did not want to weaken him by teaching him Shuri-te. He told him to stick with Higaonna.

While Itosu did indeed train some Naha-te kata (Niseishi, Seisan), he "Shuri-tized" them. He turned the Naha-te moves into Shuri-te moves (for example, in Itosu-Seisan, stances that are normally Sanchin stances in Naha-te became cat stances for Shuri-te). If you were to mix Shuri- and Naha-te kata, you would end up either having to Shuri-tize them or Naha-tize them. Trying to do both...well...would be counterproductive.

Higa Yuchoku was one of Miyagi's strongest students and one of the most senior - had he stayed with Miyagi, he would have been the dai-sempai and possibly even ato-tsugi. When he met Chibana Choshin and saw Chibana in action, he decided to learn some Shuri-te. Eventually, he left Miyagi all together - there were no hard feelings since Chibana and Miyagi were friends. I'd venture to say that Higa Yuchoku left Naha-te because he couldn't reconcile it with Shuri-te and decided to go with just one.

This isn't meant to rain on anyone's parade. This is an interesting theoritical exercise. I'm just not sure how it would actually pan out in application.

maybe you didn't read all the posts ,nobody wanna mix the katas, mixing the systems has done before by many karate masters , although you are a student of Chibana system but he was not the only master, or best of them in any given day. if Mabuni mixes the two systems then it means it is possible. your interpretation of Osae is yours ,it's not a fact, Motobu was one of the best fighters in all okinawa ,he was basicly from shuri-te yet you see his blocks are way deeper than others, He was never talked about osae like chibana did but you can see it in his posture, katas like sanchin,tensho or saifa can be transfered to any shuri-te school without problem, if you mix two style ,you don't have to block the first punch like shuri-te and second punch like naha-te. you don't have to take one step Goju , one step kobayashi. you pick up your basic like Mabuni did or shimabukoro did, you wanna knock out somebody you are not afraid of dying ,you just walk to him and punch him, the second you drop your weight behind the punch you are in Osae either you believe it or not. if you spar like a shotokan guy in a tournoment with your head 5" behind your body then of course there is no Osae you want it or not.

make the story short , we only wanna pickup 5 katas from each styles.

[rmclain]

Since you're adding Tomari-te forms, why not add Jut-te.

R. McLain

[P.A.L]

Since you're adding Tomari-te forms, why not add Jut-te.

R. McLain

I am not familiar with this kata, what is the generic name for it in shotokan?

[Skeptic 2004]

It's also called Jitte