Mixing shuri-te and Naha-te to create a new style

[P.A.L]

let's assume we wanna create a hybrid system based on okinawan Shuri and Naha-te, with 10 katas , 5 from each, what would you pickup, if you only know one of them then just bring your side of the deal, these are what i will bring in. the objective is to create a Combative style.

shuri-te

Naihanchi shodan is the heart of Shuri-te

Pinan Godan good kata still easy to learn

Passai sho good body change

Kusanku dai rich in number of techniques

Gojushiho start of white crane

Naha-te

Gekisai dai-ich good starting point

Sanchin heart of Naha-te either softer form or Miyagi version

Anan strong kata with good practical applications, body change and circular moves

i left 2 open for Naha-te , i was thinking of Saifa and Superinpei though

do you think we could omit one between Naihanchi and sanchin,?if i have to do this then i would delete Naihanchi and i would use a soft version of Sanchin,

two other subject

1- how would you step and stand

2- how would you block

i would stand high and i walk like Shorin ryu or Ryuei-ryudoes, i would block the way Goju ryu does and i will bring the chin-na techinques in , while i would not teach any lock or take down from a stationary situation (like "OK, i grab your opposite hand now you do this then do that now you have me in a lock" )

if you had done this before ,what kind of problems you had to resolve?

your ideas please,

[powerof0ne]

ummm...Shito Ryu? Also add in Tomari Te. Do whatever floats your boat but I allready have trained in a system that's a "hybrid" of shuri, naha, and tomari te.

[P.A.L]

shito ryu has more than 40 katas , we gonna limit it to 10, and bring the essence of each style in.

[kurome]

Shuri-

Naihanchi (Shodan)

Kusanku Dai

Seisan (To start with?)

Wansu (Another good beginner)

Tomari-

Tomari Passai

Rohai

Gojushiho Sho/Ichi (Could fit in Tomari or Shuri I guess)

Naha-

Sanchin (Double-breath dynamic tension type)

Seiunchin (Another good beginner kata)

Kururunfa

Suparinpe

Maybe add in the Matayoshi Hakutsuru Ichi or Ni

I know that exceeds you requests by a few, but those are all good solid kata with great bunkai. I don't think I would go so far as to change them though, like Shimabuku did with Isshin-ryu; like I said, they're already good, solid kata.

With stance I would keep a nice solid high stance, feet turned parallel as is seen in Isshin-ryu and Odo-lineage Okinawa Kenpo. I very much agree with you that the hearts of each styles are Naihanchi and Sanchin separately, however, I believe that dynamic tension in moderation is a good, healthy thing. In moderation.

[P.A.L]

Shuri-

Naihanchi (Shodan)

Kusanku Dai

Seisan (To start with?)

Wansu (Another good beginner)

Tomari-

Tomari Passai

Rohai

Gojushiho Sho/Ichi (Could fit in Tomari or Shuri I guess)

Naha-

Sanchin (Double-breath dynamic tension type)

Seiunchin (Another good beginner kata)

Kururunfa

Suparinpe

Maybe add in the Matayoshi Hakutsuru Ichi or Ni

I know that exceeds you requests by a few, but those are all good solid kata with great bunkai. I don't think I would go so far as to change them though, like Shimabuku did with Isshin-ryu; like I said, they're already good, solid kata.

With stance I would keep a nice solid high stance, feet turned parallel as is seen in Isshin-ryu and Odo-lineage Okinawa Kenpo. I very much agree with you that the hearts of each styles are Naihanchi and Sanchin separately, however, I believe that dynamic tension in moderation is a good, healthy thing. In moderation.

do you know the background (history) of Matayoshi Hakutsuru ? is it a Matsumura lineage or Gokenki?

about sanchin i think if the body shakes in any move because of tension then it's too much. and i like Tomari passai too it can replace passai sho i guess.

[patusai]

There have been those that suggested doing kata so hard that you get red in the face is not good. = Sanchin. Most of the masters that practiced a hard form of Sanchin died at a reletively young age.

As for your question.

Shimabuku sortof did it too (in addition to Shito Ryu as was mentioned). Shimabuku used 9 kata.

Personally I would suggest removing Pian Godan. I'd also follow something similar To Shimabuku but removing SuNsu.

This would leave:

Sanchin

Seisan

Sieuchin

Naihanchin

Wansu

Chinto

Kusanku

There would be room for 3 more kata. I would suggest:

[a]Passai (Tomari possibly) - I read where Shimabuku at one time possibly included it in his list...possibly

Gojushiho or Useshi - I heard that Shimabuku at one time had this kata in his list too...possibly

 

Finally, one advanced form in Nahe-te and I am not sure which one would be appropriate. I do not have a great understanding of the higher level kata in this area.

 

Good luck. Let me know what kata you decide upon.

[kurome]

do you know the background (history) of Matayoshi Hakutsuru ? is it a Matsumura lineage or Gokenki?

about sanchin i think if the body shakes in any move because of tension then it's too much. and i like Tomari passai too it can replace passai sho i guess.

I believe that it's completely separate. While Shinko Matayoshi was in China learning kobudo, he learned the kata while studying white crane. I it may very well be the same as the Gogenki variation, or at least similar, as Gogenki was a master of white crane, and he brought it from China as well. It may very well be that this is not the Matayoshi lineage Hakutsuru that I am thinking about at all. I inferred this because of my Okinawa Kenpo background. The Hakutsuru that is done in Okinawa Kenpo (added to the system by Odo sensei) must've come from Matayoshi's son, Shinpo, because none of Odo-sensei's previous teachers were learned in white crane. The problem is that I don't know if he trained in Karate with him (or I guess it would be Gung-fu, wouldn't it?) Anyways, that's all I know about the Odo Hakutsuru practiced in Okinawa Kenpo, and it's mostly conjecture on my part.

[patusai]

This interests me more that I thought it would. Aside from the kata chosen how would you distribute them (I mean at what levels or rank would each of the kata be required? Would all be done for Shodan? ). Just curoous as to how you are looking at this.

[kurome]

I think I would probably switch Kururunfa with Seipai. It's much more suited to our purposes, Kururunfa is to purely Chinese compared with Seipai, it just doesn't fit in.

9-8 Kyu - Seisan

8-7 Kyu - Naihanchi Shodan

7-6 Kyu - Seiunchin

6-5 Kyu - Sanchin

5-4 Kyu - Wansu & Rohai

4-1 Kyu - Kusanku Dai

Shodan - Tomari Passai & Seipai

Nidan - Gojushiho Ichi

Sandan - Suparinpei

Yondan - Hakutsuru Ichi

Rokudan - Haktusuru Ni

[P.A.L]

i would start SANCHIN right after kihons and kihon katas, it's simple to begin with yet hard to master. when i think about seisan it's longer than Naihanchi but it uses all the basic moves so i put it after sanchin, for the third i go with Naihanchi shodan. rest of arrangment looks fine, although i think Tomari passai should be before Kusanku dai.

one more thing i would use a totaly narrow stance for Naihanchi shodan ( closer to sanchin dachi compare to kiba dachi) which serves our combative purpose better .

i would take 3 or 4 yakosuku from Matsobayashi shorin ryu or shorinkan shorin ryu plus kaki drills from Goju ryu.

for kumite i would go with Kyukoshin way but with head gears and open finger gloves, no padding on shin or mid section though.kumite can go to the ground , no stop.