karate to kung fu

[Sohan]

I practice Shorin ryu, Shudokan, and Hung Gar simultaneously in my school, as well as Muay Thai kickboxing at another school. THough my Hung Gar training is a small percentage of my total training, I believe each art has made my practice of other arts better. I enjoy the deep stances and shifts in stances in Hung Gar, and I like the rootedness I get from karate. And Muay Thai makes me a stronger kicker and more fluid fighter.

Respectfully,

Sohan

[Goju_boi]

More importantly which style of of wushu? Goju would have a difficult time going into many of the northern styles, particularly the IMA.

It probably would have a hard time in the northern styles b/c we have southern roots

[elbows_and_knees]

In my opinion one of the most, if not the most difficult aspects could be the ability to adapt to the "softness" of kung fu, when one changes from karate, specially a hard and linear style such as Shotokan.

at an advanced level, karate is far from rigid and linear. One of the most fluid fighters I know is a karate stylist. Mobile, circular footwork combined with linear attacks.

The Chi Kung aspect of kung fu is present in all kung fu styles even the so called "hard" systems. This will reflect in techniques and sets which, to the uninitiated, will look soft. This kind of softness is not generally associated with karate, eventhough some styles may be softer and more fluid than others, such as Shorin Ryu when compared to Shotokan.

sanchin is a kata used for ki cultivation. it is karate's internal kata.

There are other concepts and principles that, to my knowledge, do not exist in karate. One significant one is the fact that you do not go back to defend yourself. All training is based on moving into the opponent when he attacks, jamming and destroying him. I.e. The concept of the karate three step sparring does not exist, in at least some kung fu styles. This means one does not step back and block and eventually counter attacks. Not in partner practise, including chi sao. What I have said here holds true for my Wing Chun training when I lived in Brazil and it also holds true to my current training in kung fu (another style) here in the outer reaches of north London.

shotokan tends to step forward into an attack, usually launching their own attack, typically a reverse punch.

You can appreciate the difficulty experienced by a practitioner who is used to going back and defending, in being told that he needs to move into the attack (in an angle usually).

Don't many of karate's katas begin with either them standing their ground a blocking or stepping INTO the attack and blocking?

That said, I don't think adapting to kung fu is necessarily a hard thing. I went from karate and thai boxing to jun fan and longfist with no problem at all, other than me always wanting to use thai kicks instead of chinese. footwork was no problem for me.

[elbows_and_knees]

Do you think changing to a kung fu style would be hard for a karate guy?

Your root style is so ingrained that it will leave a distinct mark on new movements. Extra effort needs to be taken to correct 'tics' that might be considered bad habits in the new style. Ultimately, the difficulty of transition depends upon an individuals willingness to learn.

this is true.

[Traditional-Fist]

at an advanced level, karate is far from rigid and linear. One of the most fluid fighters I know is a karate stylist. Mobile, circular footwork combined with linear attacks.

I believe my definition or, if you like, the Kung Fu definition and the degree of required softness is VERY different from yours. I.E. What might look like a soft and fluid technique to a kick boxer or a grappler may contain unacceptable levels of hardness and rigidedness when viewed by an authentic kung fu practitioner.

sanchin is a kata used for ki cultivation. it is karate's internal kata.

And if you see the original chinese version from the Wu Zhu Kwan (Five Ancestor Fist) style of kung fu you will agree with me and come to appreciate its lack of hardness/tension when compared to its karate "cousin".

shotokan tends to step forward into an attack, usually launching their own attack, typically a reverse punch.

But they do practise 3 step, 1 step etc. fixed sparring FOR YEARS. This is where one karate kai attacks and the other one defends stepping back. Generally speaking, in kung fu terms this type of training builds bad habits. These habits can even be seen in sparring sessions when more often then not the natural reaction of most exponents tends to be TO GO BACK AND DEFEND and then mount their own attack.

Don't many of karate's katas begin with either them standing their ground a blocking or stepping INTO the attack and blocking?

They do, but fortunately when one practises kata there is no one infront trying to take off ones head. Also, it is common knowledge among practitioners of authentic kung fu that one very rarely steps INTO an attack in the same direct way as one does , lets say, in many of Shotokan karate's katas. I.e. Don't meet force with force,(a basic concept). Many of the typical Shotokan blocks would also be considered too hard and even ineffective by many kung fu practitioners because among other things they meet force with force.

I must stress here that I am not criticising Shotokan, nor karate for that matter. I have myself practised Shotokan, for a short while some years back, and believe it to be a good art, but I also know that it took me quite a while to get rid of the hardness when I gave it up for Wing Chun.

I am just tryig to demonstrate the differences that would make it difficult for a karate practitioner to adapt to kung fu and I am doing so using the kung fu PERSPECTIVE based on ITS OWN concepts and NOT MINE.

Note:I now practise another style of kung fu in another part of the world with an authentic sifu who follows the same philosophy and concepts as my first sifu on the other side of the Atlantic.

That said, I don't think adapting to kung fu is necessarily a hard thing. I went from karate and thai boxing to jun fan and longfist with no problem at all, other than me always wanting to use thai kicks instead of chinese. footwork was no problem for me.

I am afraid that we will have to disagree on this one. Adapting from many years of Karate training to an AUTHENTIC style of kung fu is a very difficult business. There are variables of course such as how long one has practised karate and what style and then what style of kung fu he intends to take up, His/her own ability and adaptibility, etc.

I must stress here that I am referring to changing from traditional karate to traditional kung fu here and not the "watch me bounce around" derivatives of the said systems (McDojo?), which are modern inventions that for the most part do not possess, among other things, the philosophy nor the essence of the original systems they try to portray.

[kheb3350]

Would it be futile to practice Shotokan and Wing Chun at the same time? (Not literally at the same time obviously, but on different days say).

[patusai]

I'd agree with all that said it depends on the person.

[elbows_and_knees]

I believe my definition or, if you like, the Kung Fu definition and the degree of required softness is VERY different from yours. I.E. What might look like a soft and fluid technique to a kick boxer or a grappler may contain unacceptable levels of hardness and rigidedness when viewed by an authentic kung fu practitioner.

I spent several years training in longfist. What I am referring to is hard compared to something like taiji, but fluid when compared to any CMA style.

And if you see the original chinese version from the Wu Zhu Kwan (Five Ancestor Fist) style of kung fu you will agree with me and come to appreciate its lack of hardness/tension when compared to its karate "cousin".

I agree there, but that wasn't the point. The point was to illustrate karate's internal training.

But they do practise 3 step, 1 step etc. fixed sparring FOR YEARS. This is where one karate kai attacks and the other one defends stepping back. Generally speaking, in kung fu terms this type of training builds bad habits. These habits can even be seen in sparring sessions when more often then not the natural reaction of most exponents tends to be TO GO BACK AND DEFEND and then mount their own attack.

perhaps I just trained with more traditional guys, but we NEVER did 1 and three step sparring. TKD schools did it, not the karate schools I trained in at the time. I know of schools today that do them, however. Same with our sparring -we never stepped back. you step into them or you stand your ground.

They do, but fortunately when one practises kata there is no one infront trying to take off ones head.

Nor is there a person doing that in sparring or drilling...

Also, it is common knowledge among practitioners of authentic kung fu that one very rarely steps INTO an attack in the same direct way as one does , lets say, in many of Shotokan karate's katas. I.e. Don't meet force with force,(a basic concept). Many of the typical Shotokan blocks would also be considered too hard and even ineffective by many kung fu practitioners because among other things they meet force with force.

we angled as well. However, when stepping in, the step is usually with a reverse punch, not a passive block.

I must stress here that I am not criticising Shotokan, nor karate for that matter. I have myself practised Shotokan, for a short while some years back, and believe it to be a good art, but I also know that it took me quite a while to get rid of the hardness when I gave it up for Wing Chun.

no skin off my teeth there. I train thai boxing and judo. I didn't care for wing chun when I tried it and opted for longfist instead. I had no problem in transition. Like with anything, that will vary from person to person.

I am just tryig to demonstrate the differences that would make it difficult for a karate practitioner to adapt to kung fu and I am doing so using the kung fu PERSPECTIVE based on ITS OWN concepts and NOT MINE.

and I'm trying to demonstrate how the two are more similar than many may think.

I am afraid that we will have to disagree on this one. Adapting from many years of Karate training to an AUTHENTIC style of kung fu is a very difficult business. There are variables of course such as how long one has practised karate and what style and then what style of kung fu he intends to take up, His/her own ability and adaptibility, etc.

yeah, we'll disagree on that one. prior to my kung fu training, all I had done were "hard" styles - karate, tang soo do, muay thai...

I must stress here that I am referring to changing from traditional karate to traditional kung fu here and not the "watch me bounce around" derivatives of the said systems (McDojo?), which are modern inventions that for the most part do not possess, among other things, the philosophy nor the essence of the original systems they try to portray.

My karate teacher was born and raised in kumamoto japan. He was very traditional.

[Traditional-Fist]

I spent several years training in longfist. What I am referring to is hard compared to something like taiji, but fluid when compared to any CMA style.

Then it would all depend on the amount of your internal/chi kung training. Did you do extensive chi kung in your kung fu training? If not, then your definition of softness will be different from that of a typical authentic kung fu school, keeping in mind the differences among various styles.

I agree there, but that wasn't the point. The point was to illustrate karate's internal training.

My point is that even the internal training in karate or at least most karate, is HARD when seen from most kung fu perspective.

perhaps I just trained with more traditional guys, but we NEVER did 1 and three step sparring. TKD schools did it, not the karate schools I trained in at the time. I know of schools today that do them, however. Same with our sparring -we never stepped back. you step into them or you stand your ground.

What you describe here is rare. I have had contact with traditional Shotokan and the three step sparring was standard practice. Even Goju-ryu karate, which by all accounts is older and hence more traditional than Shotokan uses three step sparring, at least Morio Higaonna's schools do.

]Nor is there a person doing that in sparring or drilling.

So why do they seem to prefer going back to block and then come back for the counter attack? Why don't they fight like their kata?

we angled as well.

I have seen that in Shotokan during my relatively short time of practice in this style. But this is very different from what happens in kung fu. And as I said before, the blocking is very hard and "dead" , looking at it from the kung fu perspective.

However, when stepping in, the step is usually with a reverse punch, not a passive block.

Not all "soft" blocks in kung fu are passive. You can actually break an opponents arm with a soft block, and more often than not cause severe pain.

I must stress here that I am not criticising Shotokan, nor karate for that matter. I have myself practised Shotokan, for a short while some years back, and believe it to be a good art, but I also know that it took me quite a while to get rid of the hardness when I gave it up for Wing Chun.

no skin off my teeth there. I train thai boxing and judo. I didn't care for wing chun when I tried it and opted for longfist instead. I had no problem in transition. Like with anything, that will vary from person to person.

My above comment was directed at fellow forum members who practice karate.

and I'm trying to demonstrate how the two are more similar than many may think.

In their modern versions (largely, but not exclusively, for western consumption) they are more similar but not in their traditional version.

yeah, we'll disagree on that one. prior to my kung fu training, all I had done were "hard" styles - karate, tang soo do, muay thai...

Your kung fu school may have been modified for western market/culture. Did you do extensive chi kung training?

Did you delve a lot on details? Were there gradings, or were you just informed of your progress to the next level by your sifu?

Did you sparr day one or did you have to master the techniques and build a solid foundation in techniques and rootes before you were allowed to practice sparring?

Any sticky hands?

Iron Palm?

Did your sparring contain the now famous "bounce" so common in many modern tournaments, or did you actually have to use the techniques and stances from the forms and or their variations?

You don't have to answer all these questions. I am only trying to build up a picture of what was involved in your kung fu training.

When I had problems with my transition to Wing Chun, I thought the problem was mine. Then my sifu gave me a written text that was part of the syllabus that warned that transition to WC from karate as well as other external MA was hard. Having said that, I have seen WC guys in london that seem to throw hard/tense punches, in par with any karate style. Wether what I saw was real WC is not the point here.

And as I stated before, transition to the "harder" styles of kung fu may be easier, eventhough, most if not all of these styles will have more inbuilt softness and internal training than the typical karate style.

My karate teacher was born and raised in kumamoto japan. He was very traditional.

Was you kung fu training traditional?

The main problem in changing from karate to kung fu is the inherent hardness in most karate styles, including the softer styles. To the untrained eye a lot of the moves may look similar but they actually differ in the way they are applied and in the principles used in their application. Here we enter the realm of the internal elements and their respective methods and concepts.

Again, if we are talking about changing from a typically commercial school of karate (Mcdojo) to a commercial kung fu one then the difference will not be so great, they would both be probably as bad as each other.

[elbows_and_knees]

What you describe here is rare. I have had contact with traditional Shotokan and the three step sparring was standard practice. Even Goju-ryu karate, which by all accounts is older and hence more traditional than Shotokan uses three step sparring, at least Morio Higaonna's schools do.

that's interesting. I actually didn't even know what three steps were until I ran into some tkd guys later into my training.

Your kung fu school may have been modified for western market/culture. Did you do extensive chi kung training?

not in the longfist class itself, but for those interested, there were qigong/neigong classes at a seperate time.

Did you delve a lot on details?

yes.

Were there gradings, or were you just informed of your progress to the next level by your sifu?[/qguote]

gradings

Did you sparr day one or did you have to master the techniques and build a solid foundation in techniques and rootes before you were allowed to practice sparring?

had to build a foundation

Any sticky hands?

yeah, but not as much as when I was in jun fan.

Iron Palm?

yeah

Did your sparring contain the now famous "bounce" so common in many modern tournaments, or did you actually have to use the techniques and stances from the forms and or their variations?

no bouncing, heavy focus on stances. but the techniques most typically used by most were basic strikes and kicks.

Was you kung fu training traditional?

I trained under a student of john tsai. it was both traditional and modern wushu.

Again, if we are talking about changing from a typically commercial school of karate (Mcdojo) to a commercial kung fu one then the difference will not be so great, they would both be probably as bad as each other.

LOL!