JJJ vs. BJJ

[elbows_and_knees]

Also, another note on old school jiu-jitsu in Japan. Many of the empty hand technqiues and weapons techniques are very similar. For example, a typical defense against the sterotypical looping punch is the inside-out wristlock. The lock is performed just like a power slash with a katana.

This is is the type of cohesion between the MA's in Japan I was talking about that make JJJ a lot different, at least in application, than BJJ. You don't see this type of cohesion and mixing of traditional arts in Brazil, even with Vale Tudo. And don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not trying to de-value either Vale Tudo or BJJ, they are both excellent practical defense arts, and as you'll see in my styles, I'm a practitioner of BJJ and love it. I'm just trying to rout out where the differences in JJJ and BJJ come from, even though they are inherently the same art. It's a little like arguing the differences between ITF and WTF TKD. The application of each style evolved based on different objectives and cultures, while the actual techniques remain nearly identical. However you'd rarely see an ITF TKDer fighting exactly like a WTF TKDer. The distinction can be deciphered by looking at the history of each style just like with JJJ and BJJ. JJJ developed in a country with a strict MA tradition and lots of people who study many different styles. This MA tradition doesn't exist in Brazil, or if it does, it doesn't go back nearly as far in Brazilian history, and the styles aren't mixed with as much frequency and cohesion as in Japan.

bjj won't fit into that cohesion because it is a stepchild. jjj based some of its apps around weapons techniques. If you look at capoeira and african stick and sword fighting, there are some direct correlations there. bjj was not used in conjunction with a weapons style. So you do see it in brazil, but not with bjj, as bjj was derived from something non-brazilian to begin with - a japanese sport. if you trace back capoeira though, you'll find that it's predecessors and roots predate japan by quite a bit, I'm sure. african wrestling and stick fighting has been around for several centuries.

[Ottman]

What I'm saying is that there isn't that type of cohesion of the martial arts of Brazil like there is with the martial arts of Japan. Particularly because most of brazil's traditional martial arts were imported from other places like you mentioned. African stick fighting and wrestling may be hundreds of years old, but Capoeira was derived by slaves who had to change the way they did their martial arts in order to mask it from their slave masters, and thus it became a traditional art of Brazil, just like BJJ is becoming because people like Elian Gracie (and a few others) derived it from JJJ to meet a specific objective. It is a relatively young art, as is Capoeira, as are traditional Brazilian MA's in general. Traditional Japanese martial arts go back more than a thousand years and have had much more of a chance to gel and influence one another. Which, again, is why I say that JJJ will encompass a much broader spectrum of techniques and strategies than BJJ, which hasn't had the proximity to, or history with nearly as many other martial arts as JJJ has, and not nearly for as long. I'm just trying to answer the question this thread brought up: "BJJ vs. JJJ". These reasons I've been posting are my arguments describing the differences between these two arts, and I can't comprehend how you can dismiss the fact that BJJ's history is much different than JJJ's.

[UseoForce]

BJJ's history and developement is much different than JJJ's, certainly.

[UseoForce]

Who is Elian Gracie? Do you mean Helio?

[TJS]

Ottman-where did you get a green belt in bjj? As far as i know the only green belts in BJJ would be for kids.

[Ottman]

My MA school has a different belt system than most. My BJJ instructor is certified under David Meyers Master Class program which doesn't really use belts, but instead levels for ranking. My BJJ instructor made up a belt system to coincide with the levels. I actually just got promoted to green belt with purple stripe, which is the tail end of the level three cirriculum. My next promotion will be to purple belt which is the beginning of level 4. There are 9 levels total, so I have about 3 years left before I'll even be eligible for a level 9 ranking. You can also get certified to instruct up to the level you're currently ranked at, so that's why I have a Level 1 instructor's certification which means I can teach and test students through the level 1 cirriculum. This is a rule of the masterclass program, but the only reason I'm allowed to instruct at my school is because I already have a BB in TKD there, as well as instructor experience at the school. To instruct at my MA school, you must have a BB in at least one art, and of course a certification to instruct in the art you are teaching.

P.S. Useoforce, I did mean Helio. Don't know where Elian came from. That's what happens to me when I allow myself to think faster than I can type.

[karate kid 1]

i really dont know as i currently train in aikido and kickboxing and have done shotokan in the past

[elbows_and_knees]

What I'm saying is that there isn't that type of cohesion of the martial arts of Brazil like there is with the martial arts of Japan. Particularly because most of brazil's traditional martial arts were imported from other places like you mentioned. African stick fighting and wrestling may be hundreds of years old, but Capoeira was derived by slaves who had to change the way they did their martial arts in order to mask it from their slave masters, and thus it became a traditional art of Brazil

capoeira is an afro-brazilian art. The slaves that created it in brazil were african. That is why the tie to african arts is relevant. because capoeira is an african art that was created in brazil.

just like BJJ is becoming because people like Elian Gracie (and a few others) derived it from JJJ to meet a specific objective.

derrived it from judo...

It is a relatively young art, as is Capoeira, as are traditional Brazilian MA's in general.

I suppose you can call three hundred years young. capoeira predates judo.

Traditional Japanese martial arts go back more than a thousand years and have had much more of a chance to gel and influence one another. Which, again, is why I say that JJJ will encompass a much broader spectrum of techniques and strategies than BJJ, which hasn't had the proximity to, or history with nearly as many other martial arts as JJJ has, and not nearly for as long. I'm just trying to answer the question this thread brought up: "BJJ vs. JJJ". These reasons I've been posting are my arguments describing the differences between these two arts, and I can't comprehend how you can dismiss the fact that BJJ's history is much different than JJJ's.

actually, that has nothing to do with why jjj has a broader spectrum of techniques. bjj has less techniques because that is what they WANTED. jujutsu had strikes, locks, throws, etc. when kano created judo, he wanted something that people could free spar with, as jujutsu guys on average didn't spar from fear of killing an opponent. kano removed everything "lethal" and created judo. So that eliminated many jjj techniques. Then, bjj's creator found that judo worked for him, but that ground work was perfect for him and his strengths. Therefore, he eliminated a lot of the standup practice. That is why the spectrum of techniques is smaller.

[UseoForce]

I'd just like to add that a smaller set of techniques with a defined strategy has often proven much more effective than having hundreds of techniques but no overall strategy.

[Menjo]

I'd just like to add that a smaller set of techniques with a defined strategy has often proven much more effective than having hundreds of techniques but no overall strategy.

I'd like to add that this can and is often taken in a incorrect way.