Ultimatum, join or leave?

[RichardHangHong]

I was wondering what your thoughts are on this? Names and details have been omitted for respect and courtesy.

I train in a mixed style of karate that combines 2 traditional karate styles and have been running my own club for the last year after leaving the organisation I was with. Since then I have been seeking out training from these 2 styles seperately to increase my understanding and also to bring what we are doing (katas mostly) inline with the other styles to make us more of a balance of the two instead of a mish-mash of several.

I have been completly open and honest about my situation and intentions with all the instructors I have been training with, all of which seemed not to have a problem with this and warmly welcomed me into their classes.

A couple of weeks ago, we had one of these (high ranking) instructors come and teach a seminar which was totally amazing for everyone. The instructors' reaction towards one of our junior level instructors didn't seem too good as non-black belt instructors wear a different belt instead of their grade belt (this is something we are phasing out soon though). Apart from that, everything seemed to go really well.

The next day at their class, I was called in after the session to have a discussion with the instructor and the assistant instructor (also high ranking, but was not at the seminar the day before). The assistant instructor did most of the talking (I might point out at this stage that I have never received a warm welcome from this person, on many occasion I have tried to strike up a conversation with them, being very respectful and giving compliments, asking for advice, all of which generally result in me getting shunned). The AI said that they were not happy with me "onselling" what they do, said that I train in a style that is not recognised by anyone, anywhere, and compared what I was doing to going into a judo club as a brown belt, then putting on a black belt and teaching it to others. After this insult throwing from the AI had finished, I was given the ultimatum if I wanted to continue training regularly every week in the class, I had to join their association and bring my entire club across to just their style only. I would still be able to run my own classes and gradings up to 1st kyu, but all black belt gradings would be done through them.

(I can't do black belt gradings at the moment anyway as I am not ranked high enough to do so, but my governing body says after my next grading (to be taken around Nov 07), I can then grade up to 1st dan).

If I did not join them, I would not be able to train regularly with them anymore and could only attend their monthly open seminars.

Being that they were completely aware that I had just left my previous organisation in March last year and that I had only started training with this club 6 months ago. The main instructor said that if I did not join, he still wanted us to remain friendly and is happy to come and do seminars for my club in the future if I wanted him to. He also added that he didn't want me to feel pressured into making this decision and has given me 1 year from when I started training with him to decide, giving me 6 months to think about it, during that time I can still continue to train with him as normal until I have made my decision.

I found this all to be a little bit too much of a coincidence that this all came out the day after he had been to our club.

I have a huge amount of respect for the instructor as he has taught me so much in the last 6 months and I thoroughly enjoy his classes and the people in it. One possibility I had thought of was suggesting that I join as an individual and train with them, retake my dan gradings with them, etc. That way it wouldn't affect my club and students, just me. I wouldn't have a problem with that.

What would you do in this situation?

Regards,

Richard

Edited February 20, 2006 by RichardHangHong

[powerof0ne]

I really feel for you, I was in a messed up situation a few years back. I received my "assistant instructor" certification in Muay Thai under my former Muay Thai instructor and was told by him I could rank someone to such and such a rank. Over the years I couldn't stomache his dillusions of self-granduer so I basically quit training under him. I eventually started teaching on my own and got back in contact with him because the guy's skills are great and he had people I could spar with, train with. It's also very hard for me to be self-disciplined to train myself hard. Anyhoo, he basically went on to tell me I was only "allowed" to teach under him at his school and that I'm basically just a guy that knows some stuff but not recognized to teach on my own? So, that assistant instructor certification that I paid some $ for and went through extra training for was *?

I'm a stubborn person so I immediately made the arrangements to train under who he became an instructor from. I learned some great stuff, found out more of the truth about my former instructor. I eventually also went on to train for a year privately under my former instructor's first kickboxing/muay thai instructor. It's funny how things like this come full circle.

I really don't know what to tell you except maybe you should cut off your ties from this association that doesn't recognize you. If your students like what you're doing and want to stay with you and you feel fine with what you're doing then "screw" that association. You don't have to be in an association, do you? Could you still train with others? I wish you the best of luck and really feel your pain...it's this kind of stuff that makes me ponder quitting the martial arts alltogether.

[P.A.L]

if you are switching the katas from your old style to this new one and you are teaching it to your students then i think they are right ,your taking their kata without paying for it, it is all about money any way, i never trained with Nakazato but i pay him through organization just for a stamp under my certificates.i think you can push their offer to grade up to shodan and join them,

[RichardHangHong]

if you are switching the katas from your old style to this new one and you are teaching it to your students then i think they are right ,your taking their kata without paying for it, it is all about money any way, i never trained with Nakazato but i pay him through organization just for a stamp under my certificates.i think you can push their offer to grade up to shodan and join them,

P.A.L,

We are only switching the versions of the katas, not substituting their ones for our old ones.

Basically, our katas were always slightly different from their originals. i.e. we say we are a style combined of A and B, but our katas aren't the same as A and B use. We're just trying to be true to what we say we are by making sure we're doing the same as everyone else. I hope that makes sense.

[powerof0ne]

It makes sense what you're trying to do and I think you need to sit down with the head instructor of this school and/or organization and talk to him about it more open. Tell him how his AI approached you and made you feel too. I think that his AI overstepped his boundaries on what he's supposed to do with his role. When I was an AI in Karate and in Muay Thai I basically just taught classes and stayed away from any other responsibilities because it was my Instructors job, not mine.

Also, you might want to realize anything that you say on here could eventually get back to this individual through his students. I had this happen to me months ago. Something I said about a year ago without even saying the former muay thai instructor's name got back to him through his students. I even had his wife try to "call me out" on the forum when she doesn't know all the facts.

It doesn't bug me that it got back to him because everything I said about him is true but if you don't want to ruin your relationship with this individual I suggest talking to him about it now..instead of having it blow up on you.

[Jiffy]

Have you asked them why they don't like you doing both? Quite often this is just due to insecurity.

My logic, train with who you want, teach what you want. Don't let anyone dictate to you what you can and can't do. If they refuse to teach you, go to someone who has a more open mind, and less ego.

[AngelaG]

Have you asked them why they don't like you doing both? Quite often this is just due to insecurity.

My logic, train with who you want, teach what you want. Don't let anyone dictate to you what you can and can't do. If they refuse to teach you, go to someone who has a more open mind, and less ego.

On the other hand it may be that at the moment there is all take and very little give. He takes their information and passes it on to his students (who I assume are paying him), but the club who has the information gets very little out of it. I guess they are thinking that all the other students are paying for their information so why shouldn't his students who are also benefitting from their knowledge?

If it was just the one person involved would think it was more about ego, but I do think it's a bit wrong to gain teaching from one style just to pass it straight on without returning anything the other way.

[powerof0ne]

I actually have a huge problem when I teach something to someone once or twice and I see them trying to teach it. The main reason why is because they obviously don't have it down after one or two times. I can understand this association wanting you to join but if they're so accepting they should let you "retest" at your current rank..I just hope the head instructor isn't looking at it like an opportunity to "steal" your students.

On the other hand this association might be very strict and want you to teach only their way and not be doing kata from the other ryu or anything. This is why I'm not a member of any big Karate organization anymore(I have too much of a Muay Thai, kickboxing, shooto, bjj, judo, etc. background).

Like I said, you don't have to be a member of this individual...I understand your situation, he is very good and you're learning al ot from him. At the same time you have to deal with a bunch of drama that's making you feel uncomfortable...If you can deal with it and keep training, you're a bigger man then I am but you were also given an ultimatum.

[Killer Miller]

This is strictly a decision for YOU to make considering that you left your current system and respect this new system so much. I don't agree with an ultimatum, but if this instructor is as good as you say, I could see his interest for gaining additional students and organization members in the process.

- Killer -

[Fenris-wolf]

I really feel for you, I was in a messed up situation a few years back. I received my "assistant instructor" certification in Muay Thai under my former Muay Thai instructor and was told by him I could rank someone to such and such a rank...

Um, is this normal where you live? (I'm semi-presuming the US somewhere - feel free to correct me)

Sorry, cannot help the tangent.

And what I mean by that is... I train in Muay Thai in NZ. I use the term Muay Thai loosely, since despite our best efforts, white guys just don't fight like Thais. Anyway. We do not have a "rank" or "grading" system, and in fact I have trained in Thailand and they most certainly do not.

Now, I don't mean to patronise you, and you may know this, but I'm going to assume you don't: we trained at a gym that has only recently opened to farangs (v lucky they take women!) with a good reputation. They have a handful of trainers, who are paid for this job. And they have fighters, who train and fight for a living, their titles being their livelihood and showing their skill level.

At our club we have a "fighters" group for those who are training to fight, "semi-seniors" who are experienced enough to need much less direction, and "beginners". The beginners are usually taught by semi-seniors as they learn the basics of stance, whip kicks, guarding and punching properly.

I don't quite understand about not being "qualified" to teach. How would you define teaching? What about when you are sparring and the more experienced person points out what you should be working on? When you critique another person's technique on the pads?

To be honest the whole "grading" this seems redundant and a bit like ego-boosting. I mean no offence, though it is an offensive statement, but I might as well say what I mean.

I'd be very interested in your response - feel free to PM me if you think we should take this out of this topic.