Punishing students for fighting?

[ArmorOfGod]

A local boxing club near me kicks students out of the boxing club if they get in a fight at school.

Should martial art schools do this? If not, then what kind of punishment (if any) should a karate school give.

There are two scenarios to my question: one would be a student who was fighting in self-defense, the other would be a student who was starting fights.

I do want to add that in the school systems in my area, ALL students are expelled and arrested who were in the fight. Even if they were sucker punched in the back of the head and did not see who hit them, they still are arrested and expelled. All fighters are punished at school, so should a karate school punish them farther?

AoG

[Menjo]

A local boxing club near me kicks students out of the boxing club if they get in a fight at school.

Should martial art schools do this? If not, then what kind of punishment (if any) should a karate school give.

There are two scenarios to my question: one would be a student who was fighting in self-defense, the other would be a student who was starting fights.

I do want to add that in the school systems in my area, ALL students are expelled and arrested who were in the fight. Even if they were sucker punched in the back of the head and did not see who hit them, they still are arrested and expelled. All fighters are punished at school, so should a karate school punish them farther?

AoG

I think this is a exellent thread.

I would base the situation on many factors of course. The main one would be the students character and history, and talk to them and * the situation. Secondly I would find out if he/she started it and such.

Then based on thier skill level I would set out a punsihment plan.

Now if the student is only a white belt then chances are I would be very cautious to give them a second chance, as they probably havn't been tested in character. For intermediate I would talk to them and see from there. For advanced, no matter if it was there fault or not, they would recieve some sort of punishment(possibly small). Its the advanced students responsibility to react appropriatly.

[Dominus]

If it was a VERY serious fight where the person who started it was very violent and threatened to even kill the karate student, and there was no teacher around, the student wouldn't really have a choice, would he?

If all he did was simply defend himself and maybe lay a blow or two just to put out his attacker, than thats understandable.

[MizuRyu]

IMHO: Public "education" is a farce. To tell a kid they can't defend themselves against an attacker and to punish them for doing so is digusting, and unfortunatly a common practice in schools.

the real problem is the 'zero tolerance' attitude. As said, if someone was struck first, that should be reasonable grounds on which to retaliate, depending on the degree of attack. I think the rule of reasonable force should apply here, but it never even comes into the question with administrators who are trying to send a 'message' to people that fighting is an unacceptable behavior. I personally do not like to fight, which is exactly why this policy gets me so fired up, because if I'm ever put in a situation where I need to fight, it's bad enough I had to to begin with, let alone the risk of being suspended or expelled.

my 2 cents.

[Spirit At Choice]

I'll agree that the public schools' "zero tolerance" policy makes it hard for students to defend themselves physically. There definitely needs to be an accounting when fists fly, but I don't think that all who fight should be automatically penalized.

Nevertheless, one of the young teens in our dojo was being harrassed at school by a boy. He said he was going to beat her up. He would follow her and try to instigate a fight. Not long ago she solved it:

He got in her face and said, "Fight me." She told him to back off. He didn't. She laid him out with a single backhand strike.

The school never got involved, even though it happened at school. Not sure why it wasn't an issue. But, I'm glad she was able to solve her problem w/o some crazy administrative brouhaha.

[AndrewGreen]

My guess would be because a girl hit a boy. Had she hit another girl or had she been a boy it probably would have been different.

We teach people how to defend themselves, something they have every right to do. If they are starting fights I'd go with booting them out, but no one should ever be told not to stand up for themselves and fight back. Just makes them a even bigger target.

[Spirit At Choice]

Are you accusing our schools of sexism??? Surely not!

I should have added that she reported the incident to our sensei (which is how I heard of it) and was told, "You go, girl."

In a way I admire the girl, and in a way I have to wonder if physical force was reallly called for. I tend to wait until it's too late even when I get a hinky feeling off of someone (so I freely admit to having been victimized simply because I didn't follow my instincts and strike or run soon enough).

But, since the boy had been being a jerk for quite a while, yet never laid a hand on her... I just wonder... What is a reasonable response to perceived threats? He waylayed her in a crowded lunchroom and goaded her to fight him, but he never touched her.

In the adult world had a similar thing happened to me I would never have hit him. I'd have tried the cops or administration if it were work related. Is it really ok to hit someone for not letting you pass?

[Menjo]

My guess would be because a girl hit a boy. Had she hit another girl or had she been a boy it probably would have been different.

We teach people how to defend themselves, something they have every right to do. If they are starting fights I'd go with booting them out, but no one should ever be told not to stand up for themselves and fight back. Just makes them a even bigger target.

I have to agree with AndrewGreen on this one. If it had been a boy hitting a girl or a girl hitting girl, then the school would have made some sort of appearance.

Its good she defended herself.

[Fairfax_Uechi]

A local boxing club near me kicks students out of the boxing club if they get in a fight at school.

Should martial art schools do this? If not, then what kind of punishment (if any) should a karate school give.

There are two scenarios to my question: one would be a student who was fighting in self-defense, the other would be a student who was starting fights.

I do want to add that in the school systems in my area, ALL students are expelled and arrested who were in the fight. Even if they were sucker punched in the back of the head and did not see who hit them, they still are arrested and expelled. All fighters are punished at school, so should a karate school punish them farther?

AoG

I don't like zero tollerance. And the example you state of someone being hit from behind being expelled and arrested is just nuts. I can tell you that I would sue the school, the police and everyone else if I had a kid who was assualted and then got thrown out of school. First it's just wrong, and second, I'm sure a good lawyer can rip that policy apart.

As for the first part of your question. If somone starts fights they don't have any business being in the dojo. But someone who uses good judgement and defends themselves shouldn't be thrown out for doing what they teach them. My view is that fighting is a last resort, but if you have to fight, you should have done everything to avoid a fight first.

[aefibird]

I'd say that if someone repeatedly gets into fights (even if they didn't throw the first punch) then they have no place in a dojo.

However, there's a difference between someone who repeatedly gets into trouble and someone who finds themselves in a situation one time.

I'd say each case needs to be dealt with on an individual basis, rather than applying a 'law' to all such incidents.