Shotokan

[kgcobra320]

I guess that after 10 years of traditional JKA study I've started to question

the fundamental training philosophy a little bit. Basics and kumite and then

kata but the kumite does not contain any of the kata applications, any but

the most basic that is. It's like the kata is not connected to the rest of the

training. After all of the repitition of the basics, burning fundamental

techniques into my mind/body, why not release the true applications of

these techniques that exist within the katas?

I have just discovered that a knife hand block is not just a block.......

I feel a little ripped off.........maybe I was supposed to figure them out

myself.......

KG

[Yasutsune Makoto]

kgcobra320.

Kata IS the training. Basics come from kata, kumite originated from there (depending on how you use it, it's either close to the trunk or out on a limb). Keep searching, everything eventually comes together. They teach you on a formula, and wait for you to put together the final equation.

sorry for all the bad metaphors and cliches.

IMO, The best way to find the real spirit and application is to get some MA buddies and go fight. Not kumite, but really fight (minus the killing and maiming and stuff). It might hurt at first, but then it clicks! *click*

[bushido_man96]

I guess that after 10 years of traditional JKA study I've started to question

the fundamental training philosophy a little bit. Basics and kumite and then

kata but the kumite does not contain any of the kata applications, any but

the most basic that is. It's like the kata is not connected to the rest of the

training. After all of the repitition of the basics, burning fundamental

techniques into my mind/body, why not release the true applications of

these techniques that exist within the katas?

I have just discovered that a knife hand block is not just a block.......

I feel a little ripped off.........maybe I was supposed to figure them out

myself.......

KG

Try looking into some of Iain Abernethy's literature. He has been writing works on "Applied Karate," which includes something called kata-based sparring. It might give you what you are looking for.

[NidaninNJ]

I guess that after 10 years of traditional JKA study I've started to question

the fundamental training philosophy a little bit. Basics and kumite and then

kata but the kumite does not contain any of the kata applications, any but

the most basic that is. It's like the kata is not connected to the rest of the

training. After all of the repitition of the basics, burning fundamental

techniques into my mind/body, why not release the true applications of

these techniques that exist within the katas?

I have just discovered that a knife hand block is not just a block.......

I feel a little ripped off.........maybe I was supposed to figure them out

myself.......

KG

Are you training with the UCONN guys? They should know that stuff...

[kgcobra320]

"Try looking into some of Iain Abernethy's literature. He has been writing works

 

on "Applied Karate," which includes something called kata-based sparring. It

 

might give you what you are looking for."

Yep, registered at the site and have been soaking up the material since.

Great site, I'm going to order his book and a couple of the bunkai DVD's.

"Kata IS the training. Basics come from kata, kumite originated from there

 

(depending on how you use it, it's either close to the trunk or out on a limb). "

Yes, we were always told that the practice of kata was the practice of

basics and I understand that. But the self defense techniques as they

exist in the kata are not taught/practiced/employed during kumite.

Kumite is practiced more from the sport/competitive/point perspective.

I have rarely seen the combinations of self defense moves that exist in

kata performed during kumite. Actually, the way that kumite is practiced,

with the opponent attacking in full length front stance, makes for an

unrealistic situation to even try to use some of the kata techniques.

I'm in no way saying that somone trained in sport/point kumite methods

is not capable of defending themselves against an attack. Sometimes

those techniques are quite applicable and effective. It's just that

there is so much more availible to us, burried within the kata.

"Keep searching, everything eventually comes together. They teach you on

 

a formula, and wait for you to put together the final equation. "

Here lies my real question:

Why isn't it just a regular part of the JKA training curriculum.

KG

[24fightingchickens]

Here lies my real question:

Why isn't it just a regular part of the JKA training curriculum.

KG

I don't think those guys know or care about the applications. When I trained in Japan for a couple of years, we practiced basics in order to make them efficient and pretty, we practiced sparring to learn how to score a point by punching safe areas (competition), and we practiced kata as pretty performance art.

We never once did a single kata application the entire two years I was there. When asking about what a kata movement meant, the response was "Who cares? It just looks good."

Keep in mind that Shotokan is the McDojo system of the various styles of real Japanese Karate. The JKA was the first commercial school opened with professional, paid instructors, and regardless of how athletic and talented many of their leaders are, the Karate they practice is almost purely sport Karate with makiwara and kicking bag thrown in for good measure.

The other systems - Goju, Shito, Wado, are less so. They still cling to roots predating a consuming focus on tournaments. They perform their kata using Okinawan methods, and it's pretty obvious and easy to see the connection and source in Shorin and Goju systems back on Okinawa and thus back to Fukien, China.

But when you look at Shotokan, what you see are two kata from Goju (Unsu, Nijushiho), kata made up by the Shotokan guys (Sochin and Meikyo), and 22 kata which are basically Shorin-Ryu kata with a lot of the movements changed to look almost more like kendo than Okinawan Karate (keeping hips at the same height, all steps have basically one technique with them, everything lined up pretty whether meaningful or not).

Keep in mind that I say that as a person who's favorite kata is Shotokan's Sochin, and I've been doing that style for a long, long time.

But there is no getting around it. The training I have received which is sourced out from Tokyo focused on technical purity, competition sparring, and competition kata performance exclusive of all other concerns.

That's just what Shotokan is.

Can it be used for self-defense? Certainly. You're just stuck with the "Whatever they do, hit them" defense strategy developed to an absurdly high level.

I think a lot of people get over-focused on the applications, frankly. I find them fascinating from an intellectual perspective. They are fun to figure out and practice. But not superior. Just different stuff. There are plenty of guys trained in competition sparring who couldn't tell you a single application from Heian Shodan that wasn't blocking a punch followed by hitting someone in the stomach who can beat the ever-luvin' tar out of someone trying to hurt them - and have.

[shotochem]

That's just what Shotokan is.

Can it be used for self-defense? Certainly. You're just stuck with the "Whatever they do, hit them" defense strategy developed to an absurdly high level.

I think a lot of people get over-focused on the applications, frankly. I find them fascinating from an intellectual perspective. They are fun to figure out and practice. But not superior. Just different stuff. There are plenty of guys trained in competition sparring who couldn't tell you a single application from Heian Shodan that wasn't blocking a punch followed by hitting someone in the stomach who can beat the ever-luvin' tar out of someone trying to hurt them - and have.

Very true Rob. Keep in mind that this is not only a Shotokan thing. I have seen the same thing in Kempo as I have in Shotokan. The first time we went over applications in my current dojo I couldn't believe what I was seeing. All block and punch. Block and kick. When I started to show any sort of traps, locks, sweeps or throws they looked at me like I was crazy. ??????

There is a seious lack of creativity in the bunkai applications dept. in MA in general. I used to be the same way until I found a certain website about 8 or so yrs ago with some excellent resources, info and some crazy egotistical lunatic running it.

Hmmm.....I wonder what happened to that guy.

[kgcobra320]

Thank you Mr Redmond. I was hoping that you would chime in and as

expected your comments are right on target.

I think a lot of people get over-focused on the applications, frankly. I find them fascinating from an intellectual perspective. They are fun to figure out and practice. But not superior.

I don't intend on over-focusing at all, but some of the applications are just

too darn simple, efficient and effective to overlook. A good example is in

the wind-up for the various blocks. A standard knife hand block could

easily be a simultaneous block/eye jab disruption followed by a strike to

the throat. These basic applications are what i believe could really

amplify an already proficient shotokan practioners technique.

After all of the repitition of these basic blocks and after some level of

proficiency is achieved why wouldn't the applications be taught. Seems

to me, a very logical progression of perfecting technique. Sort of like in

the movie "Karate Kid" where he is shown that painting the fence, sanding

the floor and waxing the car are actually karate techniques.

(Sorry for the cheesy example)

I don't know, maybe I was supposed to have figured it out on my own.

Maybe I've just been lazy and complacent in my training but this has been

bugging me for some time now......just looking for answers I guess....

[24fightingchickens]

After all of the repitition of these basic blocks and after some level of proficiency is achieved why wouldn't the applications be taught.

Much of Shotokan is still practiced by people who are members of organizations who derive their curriculum from Tokyo or who are trying to copy the curriculum in Tokyo in order to be "authentic."

The problem is that the people in Tokyo do not see Karate as a fighting art. They see it as an exercise class that also instills some basic Japanese courtesy and values in youngsters. For them, it is basically a kind of exercise class combined with the Boy Scouts without the camping trips. They are more interested in learning how to be brave in the face of danger and recapture some of that dare-devil Samurai spirit than they are in learning anything effective in the street.

Japan's crime rate is next to nothing, so most Japanese will never, ever hit anyone as long as they live nor be mugged, robbed, or involved in any sort of interpersonal violence. Thus, they really just don't care about the fighting aspect. It's irrelevant to many of them.

They see Karate as physical suffering to learn self-control, discipline, and a great social/exercise activity all in one. In Japan the easiest places to find lessons are rec centers - right alongside yoga, dance, and basket weaving classes - or university clubs which are led by a teacher who did Karate as a youth and thinks it would be good for the kids to sweat and learn to behave.

When I taught classes in Japan sometimes, I would often give explanations of techniques in terms of "You could take someone's head off with this, " and often I would find that people would later give me feedback that my style was a little offensive and violent, and could I please tone down the "American How To Be a Criminal" type training and focus less on effectiveness and more on how to compete move efficiently and prettily.

So, I believe, except in the case of a few rare extremes in Japan, that the answer to your question is that there is no market in Japan for learning to hurt people or defend yourself. There is a dwindling market (Karate is on a huge decline there - they depend on overseas revenue to run Karate orgs in Japan) for spiritual/character training combined with exercise, competition/sport, and social gatherings.

So, given that perspective, they don't have an interest in applications so much.

Thus, they don't put it in their curriculum for Shotokan, and because of that, their affiliate clubs in other countries copy them and mostly ignore it except for the mavericks.

If you really like applications, I recommend Shito-Ryu or Goju-Ryu. They are more Okinawan in flavor, more complex in some ways, and their training is less "I'm a tank with one cannon" and more "Feed me a wrist and I'm going to wrap you up in knots while I beat your face in." I've been training the Goju-Ryu and Shito-Ryu kata lately.

They are very impressive, and by comparison, our Shotokan kata are kind of simplistic and obviously watered down or flashed up depending on the technique.

What's interesting is that Goju and Shito folks seem to do fine in tournaments against Shotokan folks despite the fact that Shotokan is supposedly this small, elegant, efficient curriculum almost totally focused on tournament success.

[Yasutsune Makoto]

good posts, 24fightingchickens, very good.

I can't really disprove or argue against anything you say because from my past personal experiences it's all true.

I can say, however, that if you want to, it is easy to find the "Feed me a wrist and I'm going to wrap you up in knots while I beat your face in." Also from personal experience.