Shotokan

[Killer Miller]

Don't get me wrong Shotochem, I still think JKA is worth it and the best overall out there. But even as good as it is, the world-wide standard is severely lacking. And it gets even worse with many of the other arts out there.

The problem is too many organizations that want to be the "one" to represent karate and what it stands for. Therefore, we will never have a uniform standard.

- Killer -

[24fightingchickens]

So, we all seem to have a choice here. If Shotokan is, or is turning into a stagnant ineffective art what do we do about it?

I think Shotokan is stagnant, and I think the leadership of the major orgs discourage creativity and the higher levels of personal development. I do not think that Shotokan as an instruction set for punching, kicking, etc is "ineffective." It is as effective as the individual doing it is able to make it for the purpose they have for themselves doing it.

Do we all continue to live the lie so to speak and just train in something we know is not practical or do we evolve.

I feel I have studied a heavy-duty, intensive course on basic techniques and simple yet elegant kata as performance art with a heavy emphasis on point sparring.

Where I have made adjustments are to my political entanglements. By ending my desire to obtain more dan ranks from people who would discourage me from expanding my horizons or getting creative, I basically pop the bubble and free myself to explore what I like. The dan ranks are what hold us captive. If you let go of your desire to get one, you can pretty much reach out, as Nakayama wrote in his Best Karate books, to other styles.

Look in his Best Karate books on kata. He lists the "free kata" available to experts. He lists Suparinpei, Seipai, Seisan, and other Goju and Shito-Ryu kata that you might possibly be interested in. Nowhere in his writings did he ever limit anyone to a fixed curriculum. He never said that we should only study Shotokan kata.

Rather, he said, "This is the new way to teach karate." His book Dynamic Karate was released in Japan as Karate-do Shinkyoutei (A New Way to Teach Karate).

I'm just doing exactly what he recommended. I did the 26 Shotokan kata, and now I'm practicing Seipai, Seisan, Shito-Ryu Sochin, Kosokun-Sho, Itosu Bassai-Dai, Matsumura Bassai, and Seienchin, just like he suggested was possible.

That's my expression of HA = breaking away. Yours was BJJ etc, and that's cool too.

What would be nice is if the Shotokan orgs would understand that at the higher levels, students are not students - they are colleagues. But there is a lot of resistance to that idea both in Japan and here at home. No one wants the likes of me for a colleague. They prefer to think of themselves as masters and me as a permanent student who toes the line appropriately.

There are organizations out there that support you exploring other systems and doing interesting things with your Karate.

For anyone who might misunderstand, I am not endorsing taking three years of Karate and then finding another martial art, although I am OK with that and support such decisions - everyone should enjoy their very short time on Earth.

What I am specifically referring to in this line of thought is someone with 20-30 years of training no longer obeying "the rules" of which kata come first, which kata to teach, and maybe experimenting with creating their own kata.

If people can learn medicine well enough in 20 years to become full doctors, then people can learn Karate well enough to become full experts in that same amount of time. Karate is NOT as difficult a topic as medicine.

Edited October 26, 2006 by 24fightingchickens

[kgcobra320]

It really does help reduce the frustration/confusion understanding the "why's" of this issue. At least there was some kind of strategy for modifing kata, not teaching applications and in the overall training.

Keep in mind that Shotokan is the McDojo system of the various styles of real Japanese Karate. The JKA was the first commercial school opened with professional, paid instructors, and regardless of how athletic and talented many of their leaders are, the Karate they practice is almost purely sport Karate with makiwara and kicking bag thrown in for good measure.

Well they certainly do not advertise themselves as such. I wonder how many beginners would have chosen Shotokan if they had knowledge of the overall training philosophy.

Don't get me wromg, I do not regret my training in Shotokan. I do wish though, at some point, maybe the 4-5 year mark or so that practical applications were introduced. By now they would be firmly implanted.

I like to get the most out of the time invested, in whatever I do. Now after 10 years of training I feel that I'm lacking from a practical self defense perspective, for no real good reason.

I have started to explore the applications in the katas and have been slowly incorporating them during kumite. I will continue to refine and strengthen the "Shotokan cannon", use it where it makes sense and use the kata applications where they make sense.

From a positive perspective, this has renewed my interest in training immensely and provided a new layer of technique to explore for years to come.

KG

[Yasutsune Makoto]

As I said a little earlier I'm all for evolving. I think it's our purpose as martial artists to evolve. No karate person until the founding of the JKA taught exactly the same thing over and over. There has been slight modifications with every generation of instructors. I don't see why shotokan should be any different.

I myself have had experience in JKA/ISKF, and AKJU. Both of these systems teach shotokan karate, but have rather different philosophies. My Shihan, when I started training in the JKA club at my college sent me off by saying "Don't let the JKA close your mind". As you said, open-mindedness and evolution. Pushing ourselves and our styles to the next level are very important.

Major Shotokan organizations (JKA/ISKF, SKA, etc.) are like a cookie press, popping out the exact same thing over and over again. Very little personality behind the individual, very little room for error. Then, when someone is "out of specifications" they are cut off from the organization. Hence the stagnation. It would be nice to see a new organization develop, one that teaches students to take what they are taught and push it to the next level. Possibly restructuring the belt system to promote that (24fightingchickens). Especially if that organization were to use "traditional" shotokan technique and practice, showing that it doesn't HAVE to be just a pretty, competition, point-style, cookie cutter system.

[Jiffy]

It seems that most of you are of the same opinion of what I have been doing with my students for a little while. I train my students in the fundamental and high quality basics of Shotokan, but as they progress, the principles and freedom of non-stylises Karate-Jutsu is taught and they begin to understand the why, not just the how.

[Jiffy]

It seems that most of you are of the same opinion of what I have been doing with my students for a little while. I train my students in the fundamental and high quality basics of Shotokan, but as they progress, the principles and freedom of non-stylises Karate-Jutsu is taught and they begin to understand the why, not just the how.

[Yasutsune Makoto]

That's a really great thing to hear, Jiffy. How do they like it as a whole? Does there seem to be a high retention rate?

[taffswell]

Hi fellas. This topic has been such an interesting read for someone who is still relatively new to karate. Some people are being very honest about an art they have dedicated their lives to.

I have a question, but I'm not sure if this relates to the current topic or whether I should have started a new one. If you guys who have trained in shotokan for a long time could do it all over again, would you do the same or would you have branched out to keep learning and what would you have switched to?

[ps1]

So, we all seem to have a choice here. If Shotokan is, or is turning into a stagnant ineffective art what do we do about it?

I think Shotokan is stagnant, and I think the leadership of the major orgs discourage creativity and the higher levels of personal development. I do not think that Shotokan as an instruction set for punching, kicking, etc is "ineffective." It is as effective as the individual doing it is able to make it for the purpose they have for themselves doing it.

Do we all continue to live the lie so to speak and just train in something we know is not practical or do we evolve.

I feel I have studied a heavy-duty, intensive course on basic techniques and simple yet elegant kata as performance art with a heavy emphasis on point sparring.

Where I have made adjustments are to my political entanglements. By ending my desire to obtain more dan ranks from people who would discourage me from expanding my horizons or getting creative, I basically pop the bubble and free myself to explore what I like. The dan ranks are what hold us captive. If you let go of your desire to get one, you can pretty much reach out, as Nakayama wrote in his Best Karate books, to other styles.

Look in his Best Karate books on kata. He lists the "free kata" available to experts. He lists Suparinpei, Seipai, Seisan, and other Goju and Shito-Ryu kata that you might possibly be interested in. Nowhere in his writings did he ever limit anyone to a fixed curriculum. He never said that we should only study Shotokan kata.

Rather, he said, "This is the new way to teach karate." His book Dynamic Karate was released in Japan as Karate-do Shinkyoutei (A New Way to Teach Karate).

I'm just doing exactly what he recommended. I did the 26 Shotokan kata, and now I'm practicing Seipai, Seisan, Shito-Ryu Sochin, Kosokun-Sho, Itosu Bassai-Dai, Matsumura Bassai, and Seienchin, just like he suggested was possible.

That's my expression of HA = breaking away. Yours was BJJ etc, and that's cool too.

What would be nice is if the Shotokan orgs would understand that at the higher levels, students are not students - they are colleagues. But there is a lot of resistance to that idea both in Japan and here at home. No one wants the likes of me for a colleague. They prefer to think of themselves as masters and me as a permanent student who toes the line appropriately.

There are organizations out there that support you exploring other systems and doing interesting things with your Karate.

For anyone who might misunderstand, I am not endorsing taking three years of Karate and then finding another martial art, although I am OK with that and support such decisions - everyone should enjoy their very short time on Earth.

What I am specifically referring to in this line of thought is someone with 20-30 years of training no longer obeying "the rules" of which kata come first, which kata to teach, and maybe experimenting with creating their own kata.

If people can learn medicine well enough in 20 years to become full doctors, then people can learn Karate well enough to become full experts in that same amount of time. Karate is NOT as difficult a topic as medicine.

It's good to see you back, posting on the forum. As with most of your posts, you have put it quite well. Great post.

[kgcobra320]

If you guys who have trained in shotokan for a long time could do it all over again, would you do the same or would you have branched out to keep learning and what would you have switched to?

As I said, I do not regret my Shotokan training at all. from a proper body mechanics perspective, it is one of the most technically accurate MA's out there. I have seen a lot of improperly performed blocks, punches and kicks in other dojo's. In Shotokan, without a doubt, you will learn how to perform these techniques, utilizing proper body mechanics to develope and deliver the maximum amount of energy to the target. It is simple, strightforward and efficient but as has been discussed, it is not the perfect MA.

I think, as some have already alluded to that a lot of MA's suffer from some kind of shortcoming. My personal opinion is that it is not the art itself that matters as much as it is the instructor.

KG