Shotokan

[Jiffy]

24fightingchickens, first let me clarify something... I love Shotokan. I have been doing Shotokan (among other styles) for just under 20 years and I do believe it to be quite effective.

When I started reading your post, the first thing that came to my mind was "this guy is an idiot, he doesn't know what he's talking about, I'm gonna fire one back". The more I read your post however, the more I realised that was not the case. It's not that you are wrong, it's just that you were willing to say the truth, which we all know is contrary to popular belief. I too have found myself coming to the same conclusions you have lately, but with a certain fear of the future and frustration over wasted years.

Having said that, we are a sum of our past events and for that I should be thankful for my study in Shotokan. I have however found that through study of other various styles, I am able to make up what I consider to be the lost parts of Shotokan and as such, I believe I can put back into my students training that which was never given to me.

Does that mean that I am no longer teaching Shotokan? I don't think so. I give my students the same curriculum that was given to me (quite similar to that of the Tokyo people you talk about), and this is what they are graded on, but the contents of my classes often goes much deeper than those and goes on to explain the parts that are no obvious (or in the view of some people, not Shotokan).

This leads me to a cross road in my teaching... Do I study another Karate style more in full and mix the two, creating another one of those "mixed made-up" styles or do I continue with what I'm doing, stick to the Shotokan syllabus but try to add back some of the traditional Ryukyu-Kempo teachings?

I think for me personally, I will continue to do the latter, but I have no doubt that I may become somewhat like yourself, but for Australia.... the controversial and outspoken Shotokan person.

[Yasutsune Makoto]

We are the next step in the evolution of Shotokan. Which has stayed stagnant far too long. IMO. By recognizing the issue and doing something about it we all make a first step. Good luck. Have fun.

[Killer Miller]

Rob,

I'm not sure that I share the same view that you do on this subject.

True that JKA (aka Shotokan) is a modern version of other arts - which nobody is disputing that fact. But the key word here is "modernizing" Karate. It was intended to be toned down from the original arts from the start. JKA's mission was to expand Karate world-wide - which included a more diverse culture of participants and as another venue to expand the art was to have the art excepted as a sport (such as the olympics). The difficult part of this mission was to maintain the traditional essence of the art, but provide a structured and technical corriculum that was excepted by the general populas and governments.

So at basic levels of the art, it is a lot of repetition for technical perfection - from the Japanese eyes, this meant to do what I say and not what I do. After you pass Shodan (Black Belt), then the initiation begins - especially if you are Gaijin. Then it is repetition 1,000 times each, "ooops" type of bruises, etc. But after you give them a little of their own medicin back to them, and they start to respect you a bit, then you get into more of the practical applications of the art and start learning some of the old school stuff.

But even then, the primary focus is still for competition - in hopes to make it into the olympics (which nobody has yet to officially achieve).

Noing this goal of JKA, fighting is not a real issue in the real world. However, at higher levels, and depending on the instructor I immagine, more of the old school samurai philosophies are introduced and taught.

Now, Nishiyama when he taught. He would not teach kata bunkai while doing kata. Although, his activities for that day would be concepts, and timing training concepts, that he would be focusing on kata for that day. So in a sense, he did teach bunkai, but not directly spell it out when you were doing your kata - except to say to apply it while you are doing kata. But he wanted it to be naturally applied to your kata. As another example, when Shirai taught kata, he was more technical in kata perfection of technique. Also, when Oishi taught, he was more real application oriented in a competition sense of kata. Etc.

Even within the JKA, the training concepts and interpretation varies quite a bit. And yet one of the most structured arts around.

So the argument of it just looking pretty, I don't feel is an accurate assement of the art considering the true premise of the art. Also, there are very few that stick with it long enough that can take the JKA art to a practical level to use it in every day defense - which I've seen lots of JKA get their buts kicked too, but I would not have considered them very good in the first place either. But the ones that have stuck with it, and have achieved the higher levels, I've seen plenty of street examples of severe and quick resolutions to an altercation.

But everything we present here can also be applied to any other fighting art. Until you are actually in war or self defense of some type, you will never know what you are made of under those circumstances. JKA, Goju or whatever has no meaning or value in this area until you know what your mental state really is in that venue or situation.

I understood this and didn't mind the "repetitious" or "pretty" techniques early on in training. But this training truly helped develop a base structure that allowed myself, and most others, to become quite efficient later on - which is also the method to the JKA madness... So I feel it's a good thing.

- Killer -

[bushido_man96]

There is a lot of interesting information here, and many things that I did not know. I really thought that Shotokan focused on more application training.

[Jiffy]

Miller, you have raised some good points. You seem to be thinking exactly the way I thought for nearly twenty years, up until a few months ago that is.

I agree with what you are saying, but I don't. You mentioned the key point here... most people don't train long enough. The problem is, most teachers of Shotokan have limited knowledge and there lies it's demise. It's a case of too little, too late.

Also, I think we forget something often. Like I said, I too learned the "simple" shotokan and I am now searching for more detailed answer, but these are not strictly Shotokan. They can be traced to shotokan because they appear from styles such as Shorin-Ryu and Shorei-Ryu (the styles Funakoshi trained in and taught before the creation of Shotokan), but they are not "Shotokan".

The literal translation for "Shotokan" is "The house of pine waves". "Pine Waves" was Funakoshi's pen-name and as such, Shotokan means nothing more than "Funakoshi's Place". In 1922 Funakoshi wrote a book called RyuKyu Kempo Karate (I think it was called), which essentially means Okinawan Karate. Later when that was destroyed, he published another one in 1925 called Rentan Goshin Karate-Jutsu. Both of these pictured Karate from Shorin-Ryu and Shorei-Ryu before Funakoshi made modifications to what he originally just called Karate (note, no style name). Through the period of 1925-1935, Funakoshi modified his Karate. He took out many of the techniques that are considered in this thread as "More Okinawan" and added techniques that were more athletic. Through his own admission, Funkoshi considerably modified the Karate he learned. In 1935 he published a book called Karate-Do Kyohan (Master Text of Karate). This included all the changes he had made to his style. This seperated his style from many of the other styles and thus became the creation of Funakoshi's style. From then on, he only taught his style (for various reasons including just being more palatable to the Japanese people).

If we consider what I was saying about the meaning of Shotokan, by definition, Shotokan is what Funakoshi taught from 1935 onwards. These more advanced techniques you talk of were not part of this. So to say that they are Shotokan is not true. They are indeed part of the ancestory of Shotokan in that they are included in Shorin and Shorei Ryu styles, but they are not included in Funakoshi's teachings from the time he formed his own style.... later named as Shotokan.

[P.A.L]

i see some great posts here, even as a Okinawan shuri-te practitioner i don' see problem with most of Shotokan katas, they are different but still teach the same concepts of okinawan te, but i have to say there are some important katas which have been altered too much that the original concept is not there any more, i don't wanna get into a long story but i have watched and practiced Tekki , and i don't see any thing close to Naihanchi in it. the moves are almost identical but bunkai and meaning of Naihanchi dachi or ippon sanchin dachi is not there, when i read that motobu sensei says "my fighting stance is Naihanchi" or "Naihanchi is enough for mastery of karate" it makes sense to me but i don't think that it makes sense to a shotokan practitioner doing tekki.

i think these are the most troubled katas in Shotokan.

1-Tekki compare to Naihanchi

2-Bassai dai compare to itosu no passai

3-Matsumura no passai which is not there anymore

4-Hangetsu compare to Naha-te Seisan or even shuri-te seisan

just my 2 cents,

[24fightingchickens]

I understood this and didn't mind the "repetitious" or "pretty" techniques early on in training. But this training truly helped develop a base structure that allowed myself, and most others, to become quite efficient later on - which is also the method to the JKA madness... So I feel it's a good thing.

- Killer -

I think the basic focus of Shotokan has diminishing returns over time. The first year, it's great. The next, its good. After five years or so, you're not really getting as much from it. After 20 years, it's not really beneficial at all and you've plateaued, plus you've grown old enough that your learning curve has intersected with your declining potential due to age.

Shotokan has spawned a lot of styles. One of the reasons for that, I believe, is because of the Japanese leadership's insistence on ignoring the fundamental principle of Karate known as Shu-Ha-Ri.

Shu = Obedience

Ha = Breaking away

Ri = Leaving

It is a Japanese slogan about maturation and growing up. Anyone who learns something new goes through these phases. At first, they obey, because they don't have a clue. Then they start to develop independence and think for themselves. Eventually, they pack their bags and strike out on their own.

But in the Japanese Karate world, this process is artificially stifled. They offer advanced dan ranks to people for continuing to toe the line long after those people should have become more independent in their thought process and approach to Karate. So, in the early stages the dan rank system encourages people to continue training and struggling to improve, but later on in the higher ranks and later years of life, it actually encourages the opposite. It encourages people to not think creatively.

Think about how Karate came to where it is. It was uncontrolled and the product of independent people. Matsumura didn't do the Karate of Sakugawa. He learned from multiple people and developed his own. As did Itosu, Aragaki, Azato, and other Okinawans. Each one went through this process.

Shu, they learned, Ha, they began to change it, and Ri, they started creating their own kata and their own material.

Today, instead of doing that, Japanese Karate systems encourage stagnation and reward it. Dan ranks are only awarded for repeating the same "official" content rather than for developing, changing, and creating.

So, Karate has stagnated in many ways. The kata are now frozen in time, and they used to be living performances changed by each generation. There are exceptions, of course. Kata are performed in a more dance-like fashion today for competition, and people like Asai Tetsuhiko have created their own kata despite the new custom of never doing so.

That last stage, Ri, is part of everyone's training that they miss out on at the 25-30 year mark. At this level, we feel that something is missing, and start reaching out to other systems and teachers, but our dan ranks reward us for coming home and toeing the line.

Imo, we would all be better off if there were only 3-4 dan ranks and after that, we "graduated" and no longer earned ranks.

There is something silly to me about a 60 year old man caring about getting a higher dan rank anyway.

Edited October 26, 2006 by 24fightingchickens

[24fightingchickens]

1-Tekki compare to Naihanchi

2-Bassai dai compare to itosu no passai

3-Matsumura no passai which is not there anymore

4-Hangetsu compare to Naha-te Seisan or even shuri-te seisan

just my 2 cents,

A great post!

What's funny is that I actually prefer the Tekki to the "originals." I agree with you about the two Bassai kata.

The really funny thing is Hangetsu. The Shotokan way of doing it isn't actually a new, modernized version. That kata still is practiced by Praying Mantis Gongfu in Southeastern China where it is called Four Gate Hands. It's actually very close to the original.

The Seisan of Goju-Ryu is a pretty new creation - brought over to Okinawa in the mid 19th Century during the "2nd wave" when much of the Goju system was learned and developed on Okinawa.

The Shorin system is the older of the two. Shorin and Goju actually capture a snapshot of Fukien's martial arts systems during different time periods. As you can see today, the Chinese have abandoned both methods and now move much differently. They have continued evolving, while the Japanese and Okinawans have worked hard to preserve what they knew for the future.

[Killer Miller]

I agree with you Jiffy. The overall instructor standard is quite low overall. However, I feel it is still bette than most...

I also agree with Rob that a graduate level should be good enough as well. Generally, anything past Sandan is all political. Sandan is considered the Instructor's graduate level. Perhaps to Godan, but anything after that becomes stature and not a progression of ability.

- Killer -

[shotochem]

So, we all seem to have a choice here. If Shotokan is, or is turning into a stagnant ineffective art what do we do about it? Do we all continue to live the lie so to speak and just train in something we know is not practical or do we evolve.

I do not feel my time in Shotokan was wasted. I learned a good solid core of basics and good body mechanics and power. I was looking for more or at least a bit of freedom and open-mindedness which is not always present in a traditional Shotokan setting. I switched arts to Kempo and am crosstraining in BJJ. Are they the answer? For me for now? Yes. I find it interesting and exciting again.

Do I think it is the answer to all and the best most complete system? No. I don't think we will ever find an art that is.

-Marc-