Why do you do forms?

[elbows_and_knees]

Once again I have limited knowledge to argue with, however kata develops explosive power, power will increase with this ability and this "explosion" ability is vital for Karate power. I see 5th dans all the time with incredible power that they have achieved through kata practice...

that explosion is coming through proper form, no? THAT came from kata, no doubt. but explosion doesn't guarantee penetration. I have personally seen guys with great form, who when hitting a person or bag have no power at all. they can't penetrate. As stated earlier, most MA do SOMETHING else, be it makiwara, heavy bag or whatever to develop this penetration power.

I also disagree with you when you had said that when punching full power you are acutally only punching slowly.

I'm entirly sure of what you meant by tension means punching slowly, however with proper technique, tension is only required at the moment of impact...perhaps you knew this, regardless, its important to get that across.

sure, I know that. That's not what I meant, however. He mentioned developing power by doing kata with tension. I could be misunderstanding him here, but I take that to mean dynamic tension, which is when you do the entire kata slowly and under as much tension as you can produce.

[elbows_and_knees]

Hitting air in Karate has been developed to build muscles that will effect power in my opinion.

and that's the thing. building muscle takes resistance. Hitting air offers none. it's physiologically not possible to build muscle in this way. Where kata helps in this aspect, I mentioned above; proper form helps you to explode into a technique - but this is not the same as having built muscle.

Hyperextension is not what I consider a valid argument, I said this before and others have also, if you train properly(including matches) then risk of injury is minimal. I dont see everyone in my class constantly hurting joints everyday and I havnt seen one incident yet with proper technique.

this, we'll have to agree to disagree on. Not only have I done it, but I've seen it several times. If you have the full intent of hitting an object and the object moves out of the way, it's very possible to hyperextend the joint. I'm not saying it happens all day every day, but it does happen. However, let me ask you a question - have you heard people say not to kick with ankle weights on? why do you think this is so? snap + extra momentum + no target to stop the kick = hyper extended joint. The same is possible without a weight on the limb.

here's some stuff I found around the web:

"Your beginning routine sounds great. But Shadow boxing for "an hour" might be a little more than necessary. I hope you break it down to 1 or 2 minute "rounds" with a short break inbetween. Do 5 or 6 of those at the most for a while. Be careful and not punch air" too hard or you could hyperextend (stretch to injury) your shoulder or Elbow. "

"There's trememdous violence in a full-power air-punch/strike. I remember someone threw their shoulder right out of its socket while doing a Sanchin Thrust during Van's Torture Chamber, Laird. I know of, and have been witness to, numerous elbow hyperentension injuries -- both in Uechi and in TKD -- caused by an identical fault in practice as well. "

"I've seen a few shoulders come apart as well, including my own. Allen you use to kick box so you know how the elbow feels after 4 or 5 rounds. Missing full power shots over and over tends to lengthen the arm at the elbow. One thing that always seems to work for me was biceps curls. Biceps seem to do most of the stopping when you miss. It's almost like there is an imbalance between triceps and biceps. But you are bang on punching air full power is tough on the body."

"I missed this post waiting for others to respond. sorry. Ever let into the bag and it wasn’t there? I should ask, rather, how many times you done that? LOL. The kickboxing thing was only for a few (5) months. I held back a lot, but sometimes let go with everything – and miss. That’s hyper… "

"Cardio kickboxing starts with a few minutes of stretching, followed by 15 to 20 minutes of kicking and punching the air, then the bag. Park's students do not wear shoes and punch open-handed.

"Each gym shoe will weigh about a pound when you start kicking. The weight will build up on your knee and could hyperextend it and that could give you knee problems. The floor is foam padded, so it's easy on your knees, ankles and hips,""

"Make sure not to punch so quickly that you hyperextend your elbows or shoulders."

"On the full extension w/ the punch: If you're punching with all of your power and you fully extend, you might hyperextend your elbow, that is what you've got to watch out for."

[ShoreiSmurf]

Okay: I went back to when I first started on this thread. I do not know where the meaning of Speed equals Power came into play. Speed and Power are two diffrent, but useful tools, in our arrsinal as Martial Arts. Yes, we train to use them together. I am also sure that my point of tension brings power is being misunderstood as well. Yes, they are smaller, and more cut, but just because their muscle is not getting bigger, that does not mean that it is not getting stronger. The reason why body builders do workouts where they lift little weight with more reps is to bring out the def. in their muscles. It also strengthens the muscle, because dense muscle mass fibers are stronger than loose muscle fiber. This leads to less tearing while training and (lol) looks as impressive as all h*ll to the judges. Of course resistance is need to build muscle, and doing a technique in tension does offer a small amount of isosemetric resistance. Of course not enough to turn 10 inch arms into 24 inchers, but still enough to strenghten them. Also, I said I never hyperextended a joint while doing kata work, not during a fight were the intended target moved. These are two different senerios that do not relate. I too have been in a fight where, lucky for me, my attacker hyperextended his elbow trying to hit me. I have also hyperextend my knee while kicking during a sparring match. However, these cases are not kata work. I do not know what you were/are being taught, but I was taught by all my past senseis/ sifus that you never fully extend in kata work because of the fact of hyperextention. There is a difference between fully extending and over extending. Those that are hyperextending during kata work seem to be over extending. This is not saying they are ametures and don't know what their doing, but exciement makes you forget many things. Who has not been doing a belt test and skipped a part in a kata and had to start over because of their nerves? Right or Wrong? My only conclusion to this is: We have been asked to discripe the same coin. Only you see heads, and I see tails. Neither is wrong, but we just can not seem to get the other to understand that we are truely looking at the same coin

Edited March 31, 2006 by ShoreiSmurf

[Menjo]

that explosion is coming through proper form, no? THAT came from kata, no doubt. but explosion doesn't guarantee penetration. I have personally seen guys with great form, who when hitting a person or bag have no power at all. they can't penetrate. As stated earlier, most MA do SOMETHING else, be it makiwara, heavy bag or whatever to develop this penetration power.

Thats a valid point. This is more depending on the individual thing now, it may be that one person loves kata and finds kumite isnt their thing. Whatever the reason, I will always put myself as a subject for judgement in a discussion.

I entered Muay Thai for a short time and I learned that my training in my dojo with hitting air had given me exellent penetration power. So this is more of training issues and differences which both give similar results, I dont think it would be fair to argue ones this kind of situation, as we would both end up with the same statements(or I would at least).

I've gained 30 pounds of muscle from this kind of air training, new muscles also, so it works for me, I can say that!

I must be at fault here because I have in my mind developed power and muscle(actual muscle mass) through the training in which you said wouldn't give me those traits.

Edited March 31, 2006 by Menjo

[Menjo]

We have been asked to discripe the same coin. Only you see heads, and I see tails. Neither is wrong, but we just can not seem to get the other to understand that we are truely looking at the same coin

Exellent way of saying that!

[granmasterchen]

speed equals power comes from (my guess) Newton's second law of phsyics

which states that the force exerted on something (power of a punch) is equal to the mass of the object times acceleration

F (net) = mass X acceleration

Power of a punch - mass X speed

[elbows_and_knees]

Okay: I went back to when I first started on this thread. I do not know where the meaning of Speed equals Power came into play. Speed and Power are two diffrent, but useful tools, in our arrsinal as Martial Arts.

Now I need to go back and re-read... when did I say speed equals power? are you referring to the whole tension tangent we went off on?

Yes, we train to use them together. I am also sure that my point of tension brings power is being misunderstood as well. Yes, they are smaller, and more cut, but just because their muscle is not getting bigger, that does not mean that it is not getting stronger. The reason why body builders do workouts where they lift little weight with more reps is to bring out the def. in their muscles. It also strengthens the muscle, because dense muscle mass fibers are stronger than loose muscle fiber. This leads to less tearing while training and (lol) looks as impressive as all h*ll to the judges. Of course resistance is need to build muscle, and doing a technique in tension does offer a small amount of isosemetric resistance. Of course not enough to turn 10 inch arms into 24 inchers, but still enough to strenghten them.

you're right. the arm not getting bigger does not equate to it not gaining in strength. However, true strength training does not have to involve mass gain, merely heavy and increasing resistance. with tension, you can only humanly increase so much... once you can no longer increase, it becomes an endurance exercise, not strength.

Also, I said I never hyperextended a joint while doing kata work, not during a fight were the intended target moved. These are two different senerios that do not relate. I too have been in a fight where, lucky for me, my attacker hyperextended his elbow trying to hit me. I have also hyperextend my knee while kicking during a sparring match. However, these cases are not kata work.

okay, now it gets interesting. you hyperexteded during the sparring match.. was it a hard kick? was your opponent's punch a full power type punch? why did you guys have the extra extension and power on those techniques, but you somehow don't have them when you do kata?

[Brandon Fisher]

Speed does generate power just look at car accidents for example.

[elbows_and_knees]

Speed does generate power just look at car accidents for example.

I absolutely hate when people use cars as an example. Humans don't have such a degree of variation. slow moving semi, super fast sports car - sure. However, in humans, the variation in speed isn't that great. So yes, force does = MASS x acceleration, but a little guy doesn't always fulfill the mass side of the equation. This is why we have weight classes. that's for another discussion though...

[Brandon Fisher]

I wasn't comparing humans to cars but it demonstrates the point.