Why do you do forms?

[granmasterchen]

interesting point, there isn't any occation where i have went full out 100% on a person during any type of sparring session....kata would be one of the few areas to execute full power other than training against bags.

[granmasterchen]

and breaking....can't forget breaking, that is full power there.

[elbows_and_knees]

To me, hitting the air full-power sounds like a great way to hyperextend a joint.

bingo.

[elbows_and_knees]

elbows_and_knees: Okay, First of all, lets not assume because there is a white belt under my name, that I am a white belt in real life. Not only that I have sports med. training. It just means I am new to the forum. I have been studing martial arts for 15 years and own my own dojo, as I am sure there are many here that do too.

I don't assume anything over the net, nor do I take offense to anything over the net. My reply to your post was merely directed at that - your post. I've been training since I was 6. I'm 28 now. It doesn't matter if a person has been training 20 days or 20 years, that doesn't mean something they are posting is correct in everyone's opinon. Now that that's out the way...

However, that is why we join these forums is to share, to learn, and to expand our training. I know there is a use for heavy bags and speed bags. However, you can only go 100% on them for so long before you actually do impact injury to your joints, even using the most perfect technique in the world.

heavy bag training is done in rounds. I never do more than 5 in one session. Anything involving impact to the joints like that stands to damage them eventually. Look at what running can do to the knees.

Second, you can go 100% with grappling for the most part, but you never put on an arm bar, shoulder lock, knee bar, or ankle lock on to the point it actually snaps out of joint. How would your doshi be able to continue training without suffering permanent injuries

lol, fine. 99.9%. either that, or 100% until the submission. And, what if you are non-submission wrestling? you can goo 100% as you are not looking for a tap, merely position.

Getting knocked out and hurt is one thing, I believe this is great pain and body conditioning, even though it has its effects on the body too.

I don't advocate getting KOed at all. I do however advocate training with an intensity high enough to produce one.

I hope none of this is making you mad, and as I stated above: I know many of us are experinced artist, so I am only talking with respect to you about your opinions. But in the end UseoForce supports my philosophy about kata training being the only place you can do truely 100% power

like I said, I don't take offense to anything over the net. UseofForce was agreeing with me though, not you... notice that what he quoted was my reply to you. my reply is under your quote. He agreed to my reply.

[Menjo]

Ok your statement of saying that hitting air is useless, then almost all traditional arts that hit air are using a completly ineffective way of training, why every morning do I do at least 1500punches hitting air and using proper technique? To develop my muscles and power that I have been gaining since my training, bags are great no doubt, but dening entire systems of training is a little Farfetched. Somehow I havn't gotten one hyperextended joint and neither have other millions of practitioners in my and their years of training...hmmm...this is saying that all the powerful and effective techniques I see from other Karateka somehow developed this power from nothing? I think this is an absurd discussion, what about even showdow boxing, thats not the point anyways. I dont even know where to start to argue this. Sorry for the mess, perhaps I am not understanding the situation.

[ShoreiSmurf]

Yes, I know he was trying to support your statment, but honestly I think It supports mine more. Awesome you don't take offense, and that means we can talk honestly with each other and learn to understand eachothers point without arguing. I put this because this is not the only forum I go to. One forum must be full of hotheads that are just out to argue and try to prove their point of view is the only one that matters. I am not

UseoForce: you did nothing. I was using your post that is all.

heavy bag training is done in rounds. I never do more than 5 in one session. Anything involving impact to the joints like that stands to damage them eventually. Look at what running can do to the knees.

Yes, but if I'm not correct. You are trying to make the point that bags are the only true way to develop power. That shadow boxing and kata work will not, and are a useless tool of tradition. I dont know I may have misunderstood you

Like Menjo said: I have done kata and form work for years, and never once have hurt myself. Kata was meant to build power through the use of tension. Flexing muscle will build muscle, you don't always need to lift weight. Lifting weights, is like the heavy bag, they excelerate your training. And as far as I know, all styles do more than just kata work to excel, but that does not make it worthless. Right?

[elbows_and_knees]

Ok your statement of saying that hitting air is useless, then almost all traditional arts that hit air are using a completly ineffective way of training, why every morning do I do at least 1500punches hitting air and using proper technique? To develop my muscles and power that I have been gaining since my training, bags are great no doubt, but dening entire systems of training is a little Farfetched. Somehow I havn't gotten one hyperextended joint and neither have other millions of practitioners in my and their years of training...hmmm...this is saying that all the powerful and effective techniques I see from other Karateka somehow developed this power from nothing? I think this is an absurd discussion, what about even showdow boxing, thats not the point anyways. I dont even know where to start to argue this. Sorry for the mess, perhaps I am not understanding the situation.

actually, you misquoted me. I said that hitting the air at FULL POWER is useless. What is it building? there is no resistance, so you aren't getting stronger or more conditioned. You may be hitting fast, but you can go fast without full power. Not only will you improve speed, but it's safer on the joints. and Several people have hyperextended something punching full power. I am one of them. I had a ring fight once where threw a straight right and he slipped it. The arm hyper extended... felt like I got arm barred. it's not that uncommon when hitting full power against nothing. As for shadow boxing, watch them - they are not punching full power - not even pros. power is not the purpose of shadowboxing.

even going back to old days, you had guys conditioning and building power through hitting things - the makiwara, the mook jong, iron palm, huge sand bags, banana trees etc.

Edited March 31, 2006 by elbows_and_knees

[elbows_and_knees]

Yes, I know he was trying to support your statment, but honestly I think It supports mine more. Awesome you don't take offense, and that means we can talk honestly with each other and learn to understand eachothers point without arguing. I put this because this is not the only forum I go to. One forum must be full of hotheads that are just out to argue and try to prove their point of view is the only one that matters. I am not

UseoForce wrote:

To me, hitting the air full-power sounds like a great way to hyperextend a joint.

I think that supports mine. And agreed on the hotheads thing. I go to several other forums and moderate one of them. I see it all the time.

Yes, but if I'm not correct. You are trying to make the point that bags are the only true way to develop power. That shadow boxing and kata work will not, and are a useless tool of tradition. I dont know I may have misunderstood you

I'm not saying bags are the only way, but yes, I am saying that kata is not the way. I don't think kata is useless - reading several of my previous posts in other threads show that - but IMO, developing a full power strike is not one of those things they are good for. Strong stance? sure. footwork? of course. solo training? definitely. ki/qi development? sometimes. creating application drills? certainly. Developing a powerful strike? No.

Like Menjo said: I have done kata and form work for years, and never once have hurt myself. Kata was meant to build power through the use of tension. Flexing muscle will build muscle, you don't always need to lift weight.

kinda. flexing muscle can strengthen it to a point - but only to a point. You stop getting stronger when you can no longer contract your muscles harder. then it becomes an endurance exercise. look at guys who train mostly dynamic tension - they are cut, but they are little. Why? because they are building neither mass nor strength (I know the two are not mutually exclusive) they are training muscular endurance. Also, with tension, you are not punching full power - you are punching slowly. The initial argument was against doing kata at full speed and power.

[Menjo]

actually, you misquoted me. I said that hitting the air at FULL POWER is useless. What is it building? there is no resistance, so you aren't getting stronger or more conditioned.

Not really, I messed up and used wrong wording however my point is still the same. I hit air full power anyway is what I had meant to say. To be honest I dont think I know very much at all in Martial arts, but I can tell the difference between me building power and not. I have through training I don't understand, therefore I must be doing something right, this is all I have.

Unless I havnt and I think I have built any power, this is the only argument I have for this topic. Hitting air in Karate has been developed to build muscles that will effect power in my opinion.

Hyperextension is not what I consider a valid argument, I said this before and others have also, if you train properly(including matches) then risk of injury is minimal. I dont see everyone in my class constantly hurting joints everyday and I havnt seen one incident yet with proper technique.

Edited March 31, 2006 by Menjo

[Menjo]

kinda. flexing muscle can strengthen it to a point - but only to a point. You stop getting stronger when you can no longer contract your muscles harder. then it becomes an endurance exercise. look at guys who train mostly dynamic tension - they are cut, but they are little. Why? because they are building neither mass nor strength (I know the two are not mutually exclusive) they are training muscular endurance. Also, with tension, you are not punching full power - you are punching slowly. The initial argument was against doing kata at full speed and power.

Once again I have limited knowledge to argue with, however kata develops explosive power, power will increase with this ability and this "explosion" ability is vital for Karate power. I see 5th dans all the time with incredible power that they have achieved through kata practice...

I also disagree with you when you had said that when punching full power you are acutally only punching slowly.

I'm entirly sure of what you meant by tension means punching slowly, however with proper technique, tension is only required at the moment of impact...perhaps you knew this, regardless, its important to get that across.

Too clear things up and make this discussion easier, perhaps we can give our definition of FULL POWER, perhaps I have a different view than others?