Why do you do forms?

[elbows_and_knees]

I know you weren't comparing humans to cars. it's just a bad example, IMO. That's like me saying when you get hit hard, it hurts. look at what happens to you when you are hit by a bus. Sure, getting hit hard can hurt, but comparing it to the feeling of getting hit by a bus is not a good example, especially if we are talking about humans hitting hard...

[elbows_and_knees]

that explosion is coming through proper form, no? THAT came from kata, no doubt. but explosion doesn't guarantee penetration. I have personally seen guys with great form, who when hitting a person or bag have no power at all. they can't penetrate. As stated earlier, most MA do SOMETHING else, be it makiwara, heavy bag or whatever to develop this penetration power.

Thats a valid point. This is more depending on the individual thing now, it may be that one person loves kata and finds kumite isnt their thing. Whatever the reason, I will always put myself as a subject for judgement in a discussion.

I entered Muay Thai for a short time and I learned that my training in my dojo with hitting air had given me exellent penetration power. So this is more of training issues and differences which both give similar results, I dont think it would be fair to argue ones this kind of situation, as we would both end up with the same statements(or I would at least).

I've gained 30 pounds of muscle from this kind of air training, new muscles also, so it works for me, I can say that!

I must be at fault here because I have in my mind developed power and muscle(actual muscle mass) through the training in which you said wouldn't give me those traits.

Now consider this... do you REALLY think that the muscle came from hitting air, or was it the stance training, the repetition of technique, the calesthenics?

[Menjo]

that explosion is coming through proper form, no? THAT came from kata, no doubt. but explosion doesn't guarantee penetration. I have personally seen guys with great form, who when hitting a person or bag have no power at all. they can't penetrate. As stated earlier, most MA do SOMETHING else, be it makiwara, heavy bag or whatever to develop this penetration power.

Thats a valid point. This is more depending on the individual thing now, it may be that one person loves kata and finds kumite isnt their thing. Whatever the reason, I will always put myself as a subject for judgement in a discussion.

I entered Muay Thai for a short time and I learned that my training in my dojo with hitting air had given me exellent penetration power. So this is more of training issues and differences which both give similar results, I dont think it would be fair to argue ones this kind of situation, as we would both end up with the same statements(or I would at least).

I've gained 30 pounds of muscle from this kind of air training, new muscles also, so it works for me, I can say that!

I must be at fault here because I have in my mind developed power and muscle(actual muscle mass) through the training in which you said wouldn't give me those traits.

Now consider this... do you REALLY think that the muscle came from hitting air, or was it the stance training, the repetition of technique, the calesthenics?

I have no clue, I have yet to learn much about my training...

[Kieran-Lilith]

Wow. Long thread to read.

First off, I feel kata is very valuable to my training. It allows me to develop good form, it furthers my conciousness of how my body moves and works, it helps me to make my techniques my second nature, and it's the only place I can ever go full out and not hurt anyone.

If you hyperextend your joints, then you have taken all your power, and had your body use it in a way it is not capable of. In "Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere", it illustrates power at different moments throughout a technique. At the beginning, there is building power, but not as much. Then, there is as much power as can be put into an attack without injuring yourself. After, the attack becomes weak again because the energy and power has been to the point of maximum force and passed it. As a result, joints can be damaged by hyperextension.

Kata is meant to be practiced full force without going past the body's limits. By practicing against air, you come to know how far your body can go before it will damage itself. If you do get hurt while doing kata, you've passed the natural limitations of the body. The kata is not meant to hyperextend joints, or it wouldn't have survived in so many arts for hundreds of years.

In sparring, you can never go all out on your opponent. You could kill him. So you always have to hold back. Kata is the only place you can ever go 100% and perfect killing and maiming techniques.

[ShoreiSmurf]

Okay, let me tell the whole story because that made it sound like I was counterdicting myself

When my knee hyperextended, it was not my kicking leg, it was my support leg. I was about 17 at the time and had a lot of troubles with my knees buckling from a car accident I was in the previous year. I was scheduled for knee surgery and thearapy before entering the military. I was doing a thrust kick / push kick depending on the style to my opponent. He jumped back, and because my weight was shifting pass the point of its original and intended point of contact, my support leg buckled and hypered the knee. No it was not a hard kick, just as you said about your cage fight: the intended target moved and threw the mechanics of my body off.

Second

Now consider this... do you REALLY think that the muscle came from hitting air, or was it the stance training, the repetition of technique, the calesthenics?

Now I'm confused: I thought this is what kata work was all about and the point I was trying to make, but not I guess That is why you punch and kick at the air is for the "stance training, repetition of technique, the calesthenics". I thought you said that they were unable to build power because they offer no resistance, and here you say they do because of these three things. Like I said earlier, I think we agree, but just are not communicating it to each other

Kieran-Lilith: you said what I have been trying too, but must have missed out on the part of speech class that you took to commune it.

[elbows_and_knees]

Now I'm confused: I thought this is what kata work was all about and the point I was trying to make, but not I guess That is why you punch and kick at the air is for the "stance training, repetition of technique, the calesthenics". I thought you said that they were unable to build power because they offer no resistance, and here you say they do because of these three things. Like I said earlier, I think we agree, but just are not communicating it to each other

we're talking about punching air at full speed and power. punching the air isn't making you stronger, because punching the air offers no resistance. Two of the three things I mentioned are done while punching the air, but are more endurance oriented than power. stance training itself is an endurance exercise if you are able to hold a stance for any more than 2-3 mins. after that, it's muscle building effect is done. I'm assuming that he is new to training with my above post concerning his gain since he started training.

[elbows_and_knees]

http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=26098

[ShoreiSmurf]

Actually I never said full speed. When I use the term full power, I am talking about in full tension during exercises like with Sanchin or Tensho exercises. You can not do a move in full tension and have a great deal of speed. Like I said earlier, I dont know when we started in about full power equals speed. Yes, I know Newton's second law. However, power does not always use speed. However, I disagree with you about endurance does not build power. I do agree that you need resistance to increase and build power. I also agree and understand the importance of heavy and speed bags. They are a vital part of any MA's training.

I guess first, and should have from the start, is define the meaning of power. Is it strickly strength and force. Not strickly in my opinion: power is the ablity to have more endurance, more control, and more will over your attacker. Speed, strength, and force are also very usefull and neccassary tools and can also be defined as power.

PS: I dont know if JusticeZero post was up on that other thread or not. However, it goes back to my point of extention on techniques. Yes, I agree if you are going to do kicks and punches at fighting speed: nothing is greater than bags.

Edited April 3, 2006 by ShoreiSmurf

[Brandon Fisher]

Proper practice of Sanchin will build strength and power thats for sure.

[Kieran-Lilith]

Kieran-Lilith: you said what I have been trying too, but must have missed out on the part of speech class that you took to commune it.

I haven't taken speech class yet, so I think that would be the problem.