Why do you do forms?

[elbows_and_knees]

yeah, but the attackers attack pretty much the same way every time... shadowboxing would allow for greater and more varied visualization, as you are moving spontaneously.

I can tell you are not a traditional japanese stylist. My comments are not meant that application doesn't need to be practiced because it does and alot to become very good. Application requires your reaction to be second nature.

you would be wrong. my first style was korean, my second japanese. I trained under a guy born and rasied in japan. He merely called it "traditional japanese karate". He believed in kata, but believed more in application, so we did a lot of drills and sparring. He knew all of the shotokan katas (he helped me with the katas I was learning from my american instructor) and knew katas of other styles as well, but he only taught taikyoku shodan and sanchin - he thought that those two were most important.

I fully understand the need for reaction to be second nature - that applies to ANY style. however, to visualize yourself fighting multiple attackers is, IMO, not the most efficient way to make your technique second nature. sure, the repetition drills it into you, but since there is no real attacker, YOU are setting his timing... there is a fundamental flaw there.

[tekki]

well, I started doing forms when I first took up karate because I joined a traditional club where we did kata as part of each and every class. I've never trained in a stand-up martial art that did not have forms as an essential part of the training, so I do forms because they're part and parcel of the style(s) I do. And conversely, I choose to stay with styles that emphasize kata because it's one of the most satisfying parts of my practice. I enjoy doing kata the way some people enjoy skating or dancing.

[Menjo]

but since there is no real attacker, YOU are setting his timing... there is a fundamental flaw there.

This is just my philosphy, however its what many great martial artists and fighters alike belive in through history so I find it effective and a good reference.

I would consider in any combat situation that if you want to dominate your opponent, you should be setting the timing and pace of the situation for yourself and him. This way, you are unpredictable and many other factors will come into play. Regardless if you knew this or not, I felt it was nessacery to send the point out.

[elbows_and_knees]

but since there is no real attacker, YOU are setting his timing... there is a fundamental flaw there.

This is just my philosphy, however its what many great martial artists and fighters alike belive in through history so I find it effective and a good reference.

I would consider in any combat situation that if you want to dominate your opponent, you should be setting the timing and pace of the situation for yourself and him. This way, you are unpredictable and many other factors will come into play. Regardless if you knew this or not, I felt it was nessacery to send the point out.

I don't disagree with that. you want him to fight your fight. but kata begins with defense - that implies that he attacked you first.

[ElbowTKO]

yeah, but the attackers attack pretty much the same way every time... shadowboxing would allow for greater and more varied visualization, as you are moving spontaneously.

I can tell you are not a traditional japanese stylist. My comments are not meant that application doesn't need to be practiced because it does and alot to become very good. Application requires your reaction to be second nature.

I think your application makes your reaction second nature. The more you train realisticly the better you are at handling in a realistic situation. Unless you don't know how to do the moves your doing. "how do Round kick?" You should pratice more untill you have better technique and then apply them. 4 years of improving technique ( 4 years of kata) with very little application is not right.

One can spar better from only sparing, than a martial artist that does only kata (if you can even CONSIDER them a martial artist.)

[Menjo]

but since there is no real attacker, YOU are setting his timing... there is a fundamental flaw there.

This is just my philosphy, however its what many great martial artists and fighters alike belive in through history so I find it effective and a good reference.

I would consider in any combat situation that if you want to dominate your opponent, you should be setting the timing and pace of the situation for yourself and him. This way, you are unpredictable and many other factors will come into play. Regardless if you knew this or not, I felt it was nessacery to send the point out.

I don't disagree with that. you want him to fight your fight. but kata begins with defense - that implies that he attacked you first.

Ok I see now, fair point.

[Brandon Fisher]

I don't disagree with application training it is a must so please don't misunderstand me.

[elbows_and_knees]

yeah, I understand that. But what it looks like you're saying is that you are using kata to make your reactions second nature. That's what I disagree with.

[MartialArthur]

Kata is a form of practice and excersize. Like every part of our training, it is useless without the other components. No one should do JUST kata and nothing else, just like you should not do sit-ups only or heavy bag work only.

There is great value derived from kata, just as there is great value from the other parts of our training.

..

[Brandon Fisher]

yeah, I understand that. But what it looks like you're saying is that you are using kata to make your reactions second nature. That's what I disagree with.

No my Ju jitsu training is what makes my reactions second nature.