ATA

[MartialArthur]

aefibird, exactly right! It's at a point now that I chuckle every time I see the word "McDojo". While their are certainly poor schools, most people do not do sufficient research before applying the label. And when they apply it, it's for the wrong reasons.

A very common mistake is to make a judgement about a school's adult program by observing the schools children's program. When i was coming up through the colored belt ranks (when I was ATA), the kid's program at my school was great for kids, but was nothing like the adult program. The requirements were the same, but the training was completely different, as it should be. While seven-year-olds can benefit greatly from MA training, they do not benefit from hundreds of push-ups. Adults do. The list goes on.

Summary: Don't rush to judgement on anything, including an MA program.

[TomBolton]

hey im in florida, and i am ITF affiliated, and i see little ATA kids (some under 10) wearing 4th dan black belts. why is that?

That statement is absolutely false. The minimum age requirement for a 4th degree in the ATA is 18 years old. Until very recently, it was 21.

[stoneheart]

Why focus on the fourth dan barrier, though? I think even a second or third dan is too much for a teenager. Assuming a kid starts training at 8 or 8, he could make yidan or sahmdan in the ATA, right?

[stoneheart]

What's his incentive going to be to continue training?

Well, Balrog, if your theoretical student needs a higher rank as a goal to continue training, I'm not sure his motivations are internal enough. Dan ranks ARE a recent invention after all. How did guys like Chojun Miyagi or Chotoku Kyan manage to trudge on without the motivation of getting another stripe on their belts? They practiced for the skill they gained and for the art itself... Reasons enough in my book.

Perhaps I am a little old-fashioned in this respect, but I think seeing children running around with high ranks only devalues the rank and ultimately the art. How is a parent supposed to respect an adult assistant instructor within a dojang when he sees a couple of younglings sporting the same rank? It may be an 'unfair' bias, but I think it's a realistic one.

Well, we don't wear black obis.

You don't wear black belts? What's the Korean word for obi?

[Patrick]

Hello,

We removed the 3 posts below in error. These posts go right before the last one. I apologize for the confusion. Thanks.

Why focus on the fourth dan barrier, though? I think even a second or third dan is too much for a teenager. Assuming a kid starts training at 8 or 8, he could make yidan or sahmdan in the ATA, right?

Why draw the line at second or third? I'm sure there are some that would argue a child has no business earning a yellow belt.

Personally, I am proud to tie the belt on a DESERVING young person who has worked for years and overcome immense obstacles to earn his/her black belt. It is good for the child, sets an excellent example for other children and their parents, and is a positive for the martial arts community. That child is not only likely to be an excellent martial artist for years to come, but he/she will also be an outstanding citizen.

In my opinion, earning a black belt is a greater achievement than becoming an Eagle Scout. It is certainly more difficult. Of course there are children who do not deserve their black belts, just as there are adults who don't deserve theirs. That is no reason to trash the whole idea.

As a martial arts instructor, I can think of no more positive thing I can do for my community and my art than to teach children.

In my opinion, earning a black belt is a greater achievement than becoming an Eagle Scout.

Yes, but that's not my argument. It's the scenario of awarding higher ranks than chodan to children that I take issue with. Why would any child need a second dan after attaining the coveted first black belt? To me at least, being a kodanja is a real responsibility. As the stripes come on, the black belt assumes more and more the roles of teacher, role model, coach. And I'm not sure that's fair for anyone involved, either the child to be promoted, or other students who are being asking to follow the lead of the child.

In my opinion, chodan should be the maximum rank awarded to anyone, until they are at least in their twenties. Why chodan as the arbritrary cut-off rank? Well, it's the first black belt rank. Belt-chasers can don their coveted black obis and then rethink about their goals in the martial arts.

In my opinion, earning a black belt is a greater achievement than becoming an Eagle Scout.

Yes, but that's not my argument. It's the scenario of awarding higher ranks than chodan to children that I take issue with. Why would any child need a second dan after attaining the coveted first black belt? To me at least, being a kodanja is a real responsibility. As the stripes come on, the black belt assumes more and more the roles of teacher, role model, coach. And I'm not sure that's fair for anyone involved, either the child to be promoted, or other students who are being asking to follow the lead of the child.

Actually, it's quite fair. I have issues with putting a Black Belt on a young child, but once they get up to age 10-12 or so, they are old enough to understand the life skills that are part and parcel of being a Black Belt. And yes, I do want them to be a leader. That's my job as an instructor. I should be turning out confident Black Belts who lead by example, and with kids, that is really important. If you look at any classroom, there's going to be a kid in that room who is the leader of the group. I'd much rather it be one of my Black Belt juniors who will lead in a positive way than have it be some 12 year old pothead.

In my opinion, chodan should be the maximum rank awarded to anyone, until they are at least in their twenties. Why chodan as the arbritrary cut-off rank? Well, it's the first black belt rank. Belt-chasers can don their coveted black obis and then rethink about their goals in the martial arts.

Well, we don't wear black obis.

However, your contention that no one should go past First Degree until they are 20 is not realistic. Let's say that you have a 13 year old who makes First Degree. Let's also assume that he learns his curriculum for that rank in a year. You're now telling him that he has to, in effect, stagnate for the next 6 years. What's his incentive going to be to continue training? Yes, I know we teach perseverance and dedication and all that, but the realism is that you have just told him that he spent the last 4-5 years to get where he is and that he has to now wait longer than that to move on. I'm not sure I would have hung around in that situation.

[MartialArthur]

Yes, but that's not my argument. It's the scenario of awarding higher ranks than chodan to children that I take issue with. Why would any child need a second dan after attaining the coveted first black belt? To me at least, being a kodanja is a real responsibility. As the stripes come on, the black belt assumes more and more the roles of teacher, role model, coach. And I'm not sure that's fair for anyone involved, either the child to be promoted, or other students who are being asking to follow the lead of the child.

Your org is different than mine. Belt rank is separate from instructor status. After earning a black belt, you are eligible to enter our instructor program, which includes instructor trainees, certified instructors, and senior certified instructors. We even have a junior instructor program for under 18. We do not make the assumption that someone who is very skilled in MA is automatically instructor material.

Since dan rank and instructor role are not linked, there is not really a problem with giving a junior a rank he earns. Now that I think about it, it's a great system.

[aefibird]

Just because someone has a black belt doesn't automatically mean they're gonna be a great instructor.

I remember that when I was coming up through the kyu ranks as a karateka Sensei left a brownbelt guy in charge while he went on holiday. Although the bloke was "only" a brownbelt he was a fantastic teacher and really helped us. There were a few blackbelts in the club that were miffed that Sensei had left a kyu grade in charge for the week, but I think that Sensei really knew what he was doing. The brownbelt was a fantastic teacher, probably much better at instructing that the dan grades in the club.

A black belt doesn't mean that you automatically turn into this all-knowing, all-doing, all-powerful person. Grades are arbitrary anyway and what I test my beginners on will be a lot different to what others test their students on. My grades are only viable in the organisations I took them with, not outside that org, so it is unfair to expect ATA or any other organisation to have the same standards and the same ways of doing things. If I transferred to another karate club I couldn't take my dan grade with me and expect to be able to be exactly the same at that club (even if it was same style) than I was at my old club.

Personally, I feel that grade and instructor status should be separate anyway. Having a dan grade isn't an automatic sign that the person is a good instructor. I'd rather learn from a good kyu/kup grade than a bad dan grade anyway.

As for the thing about kids and blackbelts, it's probably best left to anothe thread as this is supposed to be about ATA (even though I've helped to drag it off topic too... )

However, seen as I've already contibuted to the thread being off topic, I shall say this: kids grades are for kids. Most people on here are sensible enough to realise that a 10 year old isn;t the same as a 20, 30, 40 year old. Adults train differently and have different needs to children, which is why many clubs host adult and kids classes separately. However, plenty of people seem to be alright with this notion that kids train separately yet seem to expect that a childs dan grade is automatically the same as an adults.

If I see a 12 year old with a 3rd Dan (a higher grade than my own) then I'm not gonna kick up a fuss and get all shirty. Good luck to the kid, at least he's not hanging about on the street corner and is actually doing something worthwhile. My grade with my organisation is different to his, so why should I let it upset me?

It's a little like a pro soccer player getting upset at a kid who has won more tournament medals than he has - a different area of the sport altogether. Now, whilst I'm loath to class MA as "sport" the principles are the same. The soccer kid with 10 medals is obviously more 'materially' sucessful than the pro player with 5 but surely no one is going to say that a kid who plays for a local school team is a far better player than the professional?

Surely it should be the same with MA? Just because a kid has a high Dan grade doesn't automatically mean that he is more skilled or stronger or faster or whatever than an adult with a lower grade. The context is different for adult and child.

Hope that made sense, I seem to have gone off on a tangent a little!

[stoneheart]

I appreciate the thoughts, Aefibird.

t's a little like a pro soccer player getting upset at a kid who has won more tournament medals than he has - a different area of the sport altogether. Now, whilst I'm loath to class MA as "sport" the principles are the same. The soccer kid with 10 medals is obviously more 'materially' sucessful than the pro player with 5 but surely no one is going to say that a kid who plays for a local school team is a far better player than the professional?

Unfortunately, the mass public isn't as savvy about the martial arts as they are about soccer. Joe Average is going to look at a child black belt and think, "Gee, he must be a tough fighter." Martial arts schools, even if they cater to children, still market themselves as teaching effective self-defense. It's cognitive dissonance... You have a black belt in TKD, so you must be able to defend myself on the street, especially if you have 2 or 3 stripes on your belt. And yet, that assertion couldn't be further from the truth when you are talking about a 13 year old.

This is part of what troubles me about awarding high ranks to children. We are watering down both our image and our art.

[MartialArthur]

When "Joe Average" sees a child wearing a black belt from my school, he would be absolutely correct in assuming that he is a pretty tough fighter. I have 10 and 11 year old black belt students who could take on anyone their size and would do quite well against even a 12 or 13 year old. They are quite capable of defending themselves against their peers and even against somewhat larger attackers.

Of course I'm not going to have kids fighting adults, that would be silly. I don't think anyone in the "mass public" expects a child to be able to fight an adult just because he has earned a black belt.

Are they tough kids? Yes.

Are they invincible? No.

[stoneheart]

Arthur,

I appreciate the dialogue from your and Balrog's side. Unless someone brings something new to the discussion, I'll bow out at this point and let my previous posts speak for themselves. I don't think either one of us will change our minds on this one.