A simplified Karate history?

[Kill Jill]

I have to admit that I'm not too familiar with Karate, so was wondering if any of you could give me some pointers.

I've been drawing a lineage diagram of the origins of Taekwondo. It includes the following ties:

Hwarang from Korea founded Jujitsu in Japan.

From Jujitsu comes Judo and Daito Ryu.

From Daito Ryu comes Hapkido and Aikido.

Of course Taekwondo's closest predecessor is Karate, but I'm not quite sure how to represent this on the diagram. Am I just to put a comment that Karate appeared from Okinawa?

[Scott James]

Very generalized:

Jujitsu and it's decendant arts was evolved in Japan.

Karate for the most part comes from Okinawa and was taken back to Japan during the late 19th century.

Shotokan became prevelant and was spread to Korea during the occupation. Many of the modern Korean arts are off shoots of shotokan.

[powerof0ne]

Chi Do Kwan TKD is supposodely heavily shito ryu influenced more so then most of the other Kwan that were more Shotokan influenced.

The problem with the Korean arts claiming Hawarang lineage is that really only one can and not 4: TKD, TSD, Hapkido, and Hwarang Do.

Claiming Tae Kyon is almost silly since this art was almost extinct(at the time the main TKD kwans were formed) and if you have ever seen Tae Kyon it barely resembles what "old school" TKD looked like.

Many problems arise from Hapkido's history of being from Daito Ryu aikijujitsu. The main problem being that Daito Ryu doesn't aknowledge the founder of hapkido training in the style.

I would suggest looking up old Black Belt magazine articles on Herb Perez, a few years ago he did a pretty good job(it was a 2 or 3 part article)on the history of Tae Kwon Do. This was something I respected a lot from a former Olympic TKD gold medalist.

[Kill Jill]

So, do you not believe in the link between the Hwarang from Korea and the establishment of Jujitsu in Japan by those who emigrated from the Hwarang into Japan?

I know there is not a lot of actual historic evidence into the exact make up of the Hwarang, but there seems to be a lot of claims by various sources that there was a definite migration of some of these Korean warriors into Japan before the 10th C. It would make natural sense for such a migration, at least.

If it's not the Hwarang who started Jujitsu, then who did? Did it just leap directly over from China?

Any further tips appreciated

[Karate-addict]

Of course Taekwondo's closest predecessor is Karate, but I'm not quite sure how to represent this on the diagram. Am I just to put a comment that Karate appeared from Okinawa?

Okinawan masters studied chuan fa in China or chinese masters came to Okinawa and then tought the local people. Anyway, karate came from China, mostly from Fuchou city in Fukien province.

[Fairfax_Uechi]

I have to admit that I'm not too familiar with Karate, so was wondering if any of you could give me some pointers.

I've been drawing a lineage diagram of the origins of Taekwondo. It includes the following ties:

Hwarang from Korea founded Jujitsu in Japan.

From Jujitsu comes Judo and Daito Ryu.

From Daito Ryu comes Hapkido and Aikido.

Of course Taekwondo's closest predecessor is Karate, but I'm not quite sure how to represent this on the diagram. Am I just to put a comment that Karate appeared from Okinawa?

Do some more research. As others said. The most understood path is China to Okinawa to Japan. Digging deeper, the theory goes India to China, etc... I'm not an expert about the Korean arts (and haven't done much research, but if I'm not mistaken some of the influence comes from Japan, and some from China.

I know there is a really good chart on a web site that shows a pretty good tree. I'm not sure of the link, but if I find it I'll post it. If not, I'm sure someone else will.

[Kill Jill]

Thanks - I think I know the chart you are mentioning.

Well, I have checked every single English language link on Google for Taekwondo and Karate - I think I've spent a fair amount of time on it!

It's just frustrating that everyone in proximity to Korea claims that Hwarang emigres from Korea 'definitely' had some role in Karate. Everyone in Japan, says that if it owes to an outside source, then it comes directly from China, and that the Hwarang played no part.

I can't believe that there is no resolute documentation on the nature of the Hwarang. Some sources dispute that they were ever soldiers at all. I don't think that the historical period is so far back in time. For most other nations they have historical evidence of peoples from beyond the birth of Christ. Perhaps this is going to be the focus of some future archeological exploration - hey, that's given me an idea. Perhaps I need to post on archeologyforums.com

Okay, well, if any of you can give any authoritative ideas keep posting.

Thanks.

[jaymac]

Most martial arts originated in india by buddist monks and were brought to china and taught.

[Kill Jill]

I admit the India-China link is inescapable. But I'm not out to document the lineage of every martial art since the inception of Buddhism. The question is still The Hwarang...

Actually, I was just perusing my notes a short while ago, and I had forgotten I had made notes of the fact that the Chinese characters used to write the word Karate in Japan referred to the Tang dynasty (the first character), and around the turn of the century as Japanese nationalism increased, the 'Tang' character was replaced by another to avoid Chinese association. Thus, perhaps Japan's own reference to China in the naming of the martial art, could perhaps suggest their recognition of linkage of Karate through China rather than Korea. Korea also had initially called Karate as Tang Soo Do - they too acknowledge the Tang link.

What's in a name?

Still, I don't know why scholars haven't yet nailed the history of The Hwarang. It possibly contains a huge gap in martial arts history.

[powerof0ne]

Don't forget the possible Greek Pankration to India link...Pankration was recorded in Greece before MAs in India were and the Romans brought back Pankration then went around the world claiming land...with India being one of these places. This is a theory that has been going around for a while now.

Hawarang coming to Japan and that's how jujitsu started? I seriously doubt that. If this was true I don't know why the founder of Hapkido would claim Daito Ryu then Daito Ryu denying he ever trained. I do think it's funny that Hapkido and Aikido use the same kanji and that Korea at one point didn't like "chinese characters" so tried to get rid of them and made it's own type of writing.

In regards to Karate, it is pretty well known how much China's MAs influenced it...I mean look at Uechi ryu/pangai noon, the founder more or less took tiger boxing and combined it with Te. As for the rest I think you can find it on your own...This information isn't that hard to find.