Learning online

[ovine king]

let's be logical here.

learning a martial art is for all intent purposes, learning to fight (whether you do so, or the level in which you do so isn't the point here...). By its nature, fighting is a form of interaction with another person.

Now let's assume that someone has a good collection of 100% accurate and illustrative videos from which to learn forms from as well as guide in how to dissect the forms.

Let's also assume that the person involved has a partner with whom they can practice and test the thing he is learning and he does so on a realistic level (let's for the argument assume that they both are learning at the same time)

There is inherently, a greater chance of things that might be misunderstood because of not having a physical example of what things look like/feel like to reference (i.e an experienced teacher).

There is also a greater chance of him learning something "wrong" because he is not shown what something is supposed to feel like but as long as he is practicing and testing things properly, he would still find things that work for him and be a competent fighter.

Of course, it might not end up being the same as what it is suposed to be that he is learning but if it works, what's the real problem?

[UseoForce]

I think it should be looked at like a vitamin supplement: You get some good stuff from it, but you still have to eat real food!

[ps1]

Evilgollum,

Practice does not make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect. If you believe you are doing something just like the video says... chances are good that you are not. Inevitably you will be practicing techniques incorrectly. Then you will become an expert at incorrectly performing a technique.

It is important to understand that in the martial arts a fraction of an inch can mean the differance between landing a devistating blow and failing to do so or having your throat slit open and earning just a scar. Trust me when I tell you that you cannot possibly fathom what I am saying when I tell you that. Not until you've used them on a battlefield (or a similar life/ death situation).

A video can not grab you and place your fingers in the correct position or raise you knee a fraction higher or fix the angle on your base leg in a kick. Nor can a video determine when you are ready to move on to the next level of your technique. All a video/ internet learning will do is teach you how to look pretty. If effectivness is your goal in anyway...seek out an instructor. There are no shortcuts to get around this.

Please feel free to have your friend consult us as well.

PS1

[Fairfax_Uechi]

I completely agree that having someone teach you in person is infinitly better than going by videos, but I can't actually think of any reasons why. One main thing would be corrections, but with videos that could be done. Any consice logical reasoning as to exactly why a dojo is better than a online forum?

We need to figure out why believe what we do, and how to convince other people of this.

Why, trust me when I say with all of my years of training I still get corrected on a regular basis And my Sensei who is very very high ranking even gets corrected by his seniors when he trains with them. The differences are tiny. Take a white belt, and their technique is at a stage where they are learning the basic movements and that's fine, but take a brown belt, or even a Shodan (1st degree black belt), and they are working on what appears to be tiny improvements, plus internal improvements such as mental, and medative. It may not seem like much as a beginner, but when you get to the point where your art become internal you'll understand.

All I can suggest is get a video or two and some books and try training that way for a few months. THEN go watch the original Karate Kid movie, THEN go to a good dojo and train under a qualified sensei. Come back and let me know what you think after training under a good sensei for a few months. You'll answer your own question. I promise.

[Fairfax_Uechi]

Practice does not make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect. If you believe you are doing something just like the video says... chances are good that you are not. Inevitably you will be practicing techniques incorrectly. Then you will become an expert at incorrectly performing a technique.

Sounds like something that the great Cal Ripkin said!!!

Another thought that came to mind, is look at all of the great professional athletes and think about how many had coaches. Um, that would be ALL!! A good Sensei is not only a teacher, but also a coach!

And another thought that just came to mind is the social aspect of traininig in a dojo. You'll make friends. These friends will be very close as you get up in rank. People who become closer to you than your biological family.

[jaymac]

Fairfax, I think you hit it right on the head. My advice would be the same. Take a few classes and compare it to learning online. you will see a huge difference.

Also, I have to say, I attended a tournament once where a guy (how he got into the tournament in itself had to be a good story) who was a self proclaimed black belt competed. I have never seen worse technique in my life. He was sitting next to me and bragging how he trained himself with books and videos and online schools. He said he earned this black belt he was wearing. Can you actually do that? I don't know, I never looked into and in fact forgot about it until now, but he was absolutely not representing any form of martial art skill. But hey he had confidence and he really tried, but he was REALLY BAD! I was really hoping after the people running the tournament saw his performance, that maybe they suggest he not spar. Maybe they did and he refused because he attempted sparring. 1-2-3 out. He didn't get hurt because the nidan sparring him had pity (as we all did). Nobody wanted to see this guy get hurt at all. The nidan just went in and made quick points (using good form) and won the match easily.

All in all, if I was serious about learning a martial art, I would want to learn it from an instructor that I could actually talk to and ask questions and learn from.

[nanfeishen]

Hey! Dont knock learning off books and videos, it can be great fun.

Way before i knew anything, (that doesnt mean i know anything now), i bought a few books deciding to TEACH MYSELF, yeah right!

First book was about conditioning oneself, decided to train on the local hillside near where i lived, ran up the hill and almost gave myself a coronary, thought "okay, now for some leg stretches" , tried to do the splits and pulled a groin muscle so severely , had to use an old branch to hobble home as a crutch, but i had survived my first self taught lesson.

Decided i had to try and toughen up the hands by punching stuff, so limped down to the local beach with two buckets and filled them with sand, got home, and started punching the sand, easy, tried knife hand with fingers rigid to pierce the sand (had seen this in many Kung Fu movies), fingers enter sand, and wrist folds back severelly spraining wrist, end day two of conditioning, the days ahead became stranger, but i thought "just not tough enough to take this yet".

The second book was on the nunchaka (why is it the first thing everybody goes for when they first try a weapon of any sort ?), "cool! this is easy" swing, swing, " lets try passing it through the legs", man down with severe pain in the groin, my future social life in severe doubt, round two, "lets swing it up behind and over the shoulder", man down full stop, needing stitches in back of head. As far as i know they,(the nunchaka's) still reside in a box in my garage waiting for the next poor self deluded victim of martial art mania to expose them to the world of self indulgence.

The third and final book was on Shotokan Karate, showing the first three kata, so i diligently learned the first and signed on for my first class at the local school that taught Shotokan, thought i might make a good impression knowing what i knew, barely survived the physical warm up, and just made it to the end of the class without passing out, decided to stay for some "sparring" afterwards. "sparring " was just another name for the seniors to practice their techniques on the poor and unsuspecting, the would be tough guys, and the down right stupid enough to stay group, you are a beginner you dont belong here for a while and you should know better, got taken out by a front kick to the face, end of day one of Karate.

Stayed for 1 year at that before moving over to a Kung Fu system that offered a lot more from a regard to the spiritual side , and having been very interested in Daoism from a young age chose to go that route instead.

But learning off books and videos can be fun, plus the ability to laugh at yourself.

[tkdan]

I used to read book watch martial arts ACTors. I even had two good friends that were taking karate that I trained with. It was not until I actually stepped into a dojo that I began to learn martial arts.

[johnnymac]

now we have a semi-online type of instruction going on with Saishu Ryu. However it is mostly for testing people who have trained with us in the past, but are either deployed (we have a large number of military), or have changed duty stations out of the area. We still do require our members to train with our Doshu at atleast one seminar a year, and he does travel to their locations.

Needless to say, we accept video examinations for our members, and provide guidance through our members area's forums, and also dvd's of our kata. Personally I think with modern technologies, there is nothing wrong with doing business like this.. however the student has to have had some prior hands on time, be self motivated, and be willing to accept critisizm when they get feedback from their videos.

I know this isn't really the best explaination, but for some of our guys (especially the ones in places like Iraq and Afghanistan) this is the only training outlet they have. Better online and them sending us videos to correct them, and advance them when they are ready than nothing.

John

[Menjo]

now we have a semi-online type of instruction going on with Saishu Ryu. However it is mostly for testing people who have trained with us in the past, but are either deployed (we have a large number of military), or have changed duty stations out of the area. We still do require our members to train with our Doshu at atleast one seminar a year, and he does travel to their locations.

Needless to say, we accept video examinations for our members, and provide guidance through our members area's forums, and also dvd's of our kata. Personally I think with modern technologies, there is nothing wrong with doing business like this.. however the student has to have had some prior hands on time, be self motivated, and be willing to accept critisizm when they get feedback from their videos.

I know this isn't really the best explaination, but for some of our guys (especially the ones in places like Iraq and Afghanistan) this is the only training outlet they have. Better online and them sending us videos to correct them, and advance them when they are ready than nothing.

John

I see what you mean, and you hold a strong point. I think like you said though, someone would have to have alot of motivation and dicipline to progress in MA.