Gichin Funakoshi/Masatoshi Nakayama injuries

[cluelesskarateka]

Hi y'all, just wondering if anyone can answer these queries definitively.

I heard that Gichin Funakoshi had a hip injury/malformation that meant he couldn't practice the karate taught to him by Azato correctly, which is why Yoshitaka's karate was so different from his fathers. Hence why Gichin Funakoshi's stances were al so high.

Also I heard at some point early in his career, possibly while in China, that Nakayama Sensei suffered a severe spinal injury, which is why his posture sometimes looks incorrect, and why his kicks didn't meet his own specifications in Dynamic Karate (check up on the foot position for mawashigeri if you're wondering).

Thanks y'all.

[ncole_91]

I have never heard about my Funakoshi having a hip injury. If you look at his pictures of him doing his stances, they are pretty high, but you also have to take into account that he was really old. For someone of his age, to be still doing karate, is outstanding.

[jion]

I too have heard the Funakoshi had osteo arthritis in his hips, but I doubt that had anything to do with the appearance of his karate.

Funakoshi's son, Yoshitaka, modified karate (much to Gichin's anger) and made the stances lower, deeper and stronger. He was the one that gave Shotokan karate a much more offensive and aggressive appearance and function.

However, my stances are getting higher too. After 20+ years of training, my distance has gotten closer and closer to my opponent. I also find that shorter kokutsu-dachi allows for greater weight distribution and pushing forward.

Dunno about Nakayama's spine though.

[NidaninNJ]

Lots of people lose flexibility as they get older and lots of people develop arthritis. I don't know if Funakoshi sensei and Nakayama sensei had these issues but they probably did.

Nakayama sensei was covered in an avalanche while skiing a long time ago. I think it was in the 1950's. I heard he almost died and the doc's told him at first he might not come out of a coma, then he did. Then they said he might not walk again, then he did. Then they said he'd definitely never do karate again.

These guys faced obstacles like so many other people, maybe more. They were not perfect. Nobody is. I don't know if these are excuses for imperfections in form but since they were older in many of the pictures we see of them I think that is at least a little excuse.

[swdw]

The stories about Funakoshi's stances being high because of age and/or injury fall into the category of "karate urban legends". He did become old, and he may have had an injury, but this had nothing to do with the height of his stances.

His stances were high compared to modern day shotokan because that's how he was taught. Look at Okinwan Shorin-ryu and some pictures of Funakoshi in the 1920's and you'll see lot's of similarities. This is because he had some of the same teachers as the Shorin-ryu founders. One reason Shotokan stances became deeper and longer was because of the influence of kendo in Japanese culture. It's also said the Funakoshi never taught a back stance prior to WWII. I've never seen a picture of him doing one. However, the back stance is very prevalent in kendo.

Shotokan was not the only one affected in this way. Japanes Goju stances are longer and lower than their Okinwan versions too. Kyokushinkai stances are lower than the version done by the Okinawan roots of that style too.

[jion]

@swdw

Here's a few shot of Funakoshi in kokutsu:

http://www.msstate.edu/org/shotokan/new_pa6.jpg

http://www.fightingarts.com/content02/graphics/roots_shotokan_2-2.jpg

http://www.shotokai.com/imagenes/gichin_funakoshi/osensei2.jpg

What's even worse, is the way most people see his stance as inferior or sloppy. I think most people should just try standing like he did for a few months or so and then go back to the deep, over-exaggerated "Shotokan" kokutsu dachi. Besides, our modern day kokutsu is bound to give you hips and back problems. By standing to far down, you're very unlikely to be shifting your weight backwards (which is the whole idea, innit?)

[Sensei Rick]

http://www.msstate.edu/org/shotokan/new_pa6.jpg

http://www.fightingarts.com/content02/graphics/roots_shotokan_2-2.jpg

http://www.shotokai.com/imagenes/gichin_funakoshi/osensei2.jpg

What's even worse, is the way most people see his stance as inferior or sloppy.

I don't think his stances are sloppy. Look at the other students in the third link that you posted, they look the same as their instuctor. I have heard many things on this matter, with the influx of americans. If you think about it, the americans had a base in okinawa (sp) and bombed japan. then they asked these okinawin masters to teach them karate. I have heard that's whne the shinai was brought into use. lets beat these americans with a stick till they stand so low that it hurts them and they will pay us. Well tell them that how they learn karate. These Gi's (like Robert Trias) came to america and did the same thing to there students. which leads us to today. You can't even spank your own children without worrying about a law suit. So I don't spank my student with a boken like my instructor did. I have more students, but there stances aren't like mine.

If you read karate do my way of life, he was in his eighties, and states that he never saw a doctor or took an elixor in his whole life. He found massages ticklish and would forgo offers from his grandchildren to do so. The fact that he states he never saw a doctor in his whole life would tell me that he had no ailments (that he was aware of) If you heard funakoshi had osteoarthritis in his hips, it is false, and purely speculation.

Trained properly,karate should extend your life. I live in arizona and last saw Sensei Koyama when he was 65, and he looked about 27. I've heard that he now only likes to do the tekki kata, but does them all the time. He is an example that all should follow.

[swdw]

@swdw

Here's a few shot of Funakoshi in kokutsu:

Besides, our modern day kokutsu is bound to give you hips and back problems. By standing to far down, you're very unlikely to be shifting your weight backwards (which is the whole idea, innit?)

Forgot about these. Now that I've seen them again, I do remember them. Thanks.

I trained in shotokan for 3.5 years and always had a nagging lower back problem during that time. It went away when I switched to Goju which has no kokutsu dachi. I'd lay odds that if I'd been doing the stance like Funakoshi, my back never would have bothered me.

[Sensei fighter]

I trained in shotokan for 3.5 years and always had a nagging lower back problem during that time. It went away when I switched to Goju which has no kokutsu dachi. I'd lay odds that if I'd been doing the stance like Funakoshi, my back never would have bothered me.

Well, Gentlemen I'd say I must disagree! If you ever had problems with your back - that can only mean you were doing something wrong.

As you see in the pictures from 2nd and 3rd ling the stances of Funakoshi are not short at all (two shoulder widths). Diffenet Masters teach different stances, for example Kinazawa has wide and low Kokutsu while Kubota's pretty much like Funakoshi's. Karate is not a dogma, it improves and develops.

And the idea of Kokutsu Dachi is defence - not shifting your weigh backwards, for experienced fighters would agree that will deprive a man from moving forward with any speed and stability of the position.

Funakoshi: It takes 2 years to master a stance. How much would you spend to master a Kata?...

[palatoss]

Does anybody know if also Sensei Taiji Kase had injuries in his knees? His students in Shotokan Kase-Ha use fudo-dachi instead of kokutsu and zenkutsu-dachi. I read somewhere that due to his knee injuries he had to use fudo dachi and now his followers are doing the same...

Nothing wrong with the Kase-Ha style, very powerful style and not so sports-oriented as mainstream Shotokan. Just wanted to know if those knee-rumors are true...