Shotokan karate

[foofies]

updates: I have an offer to practice shotokan karate for a hole month for FREE in the dojo near my area and I'm starting today.

Thanks for the replies guys.

[jion]

have fun! Keep us updated on how it went

[NidaninNJ]

the dojo near my area is more from old school too. They don't wear safety gear and sparing is full contact. But I'm not sure if the compete or not. And also not sure if the instruction there is good or not. Because there Sensi is 3rd dan black belt. I'm not sure if a 3rd dan have the skills to teach? My current TKD teacher is 7th dan and his assistant is 5th dan so

I may be biased (I do Shotokan) but from my experience seeing thousands of Shotokan black belts and hundreds of TKD black belts I would say that the average 3rd dan in Shotokan is probably better than the 7th dan in TKD.

I know there are some terrible Shotokan black belts and some great TKD black belts. This is just from my experience - which I think is enough to know there is definitely a different standard between the two arts.

But as somebody else already said here its not as much about rank as how good the instructor is. By that I mean how well they can teach.

Go watch some classes and see if the students look like they are learning things and enjoying themselves. If they are maybe thats the place you want to be.

[jion]

I can't judge TKD, but most people in our Shotokan club take roughly 5 to 8 years on brown belt before moving onto black belt, training 2 or 3 times a week.

I think someone on this site said you shouldn't measure in degrees of belts, but how many hours trained.

A friend of mine is doing her third dan now and has been training regularly since 1983.

just thought I'd add that

[Tommy_P]

I can't judge TKD, but most people in our Shotokan club take roughly 5 to 8 years on brown belt before moving onto black belt, training 2 or 3 times a week.

I think someone on this site said you shouldn't measure in degrees of belts, but how many hours trained.

A friend of mine is doing her third dan now and has been training regularly since 1983.

just thought I'd add that

Jion,

There are many schools out there practically giving belts away and promoting too fast IMO. On the other hand 5-8 years in one belt level? That is way too long and three years is more common for brown to black. White to black in 4-6 years is average in Shotokan schools and I'd say closer to 5. Don't forget that most of the great Shotokan teachers sent to America from Japan at the start of Shotokans introduction had only trained a few years themselves. Check out the JKA webpage, http://www.jka.or.jp/english/e_index.html it gives current length of time at each Dan level. 2 years at Shodan at least to test for nidan, 3 years at nidan for sandan etc. It doesn't give Kyu grade requirements citing it's up to the orginization but I know it's average. 4 months between kyu's? Less?

Before black belt you are getting a grasp of basics, sort of like learning the alphabet and some basic writing skills and printing. BB and above you are learning to put basic sentences intoparagraphs and move from basic printing to writing in script.

How much time can one waste learning those basic skills?

So from white to black would take what? A possible 10-12 years?

A friend of mine is doing her third dan now and has been training regularly since 1983.

I can see this as a personal decision but it's a bit long as far as an orginizational requirement. 23 years? Average would be 5 to black belt another two to nidan another three to 3rd dan. Lets make it a little extreme and go 6 years from white to black, 5 to 2nd dan and another 5 to 3rd. That's still only 16 years.

Tommy

[foofies]

I would say that the average 3rd dan in Shotokan is probably better than the 7th dan in TKD.

I'm sorry, your information is biased on what??

N are you trying to offend my TKD instructor ??

[NidaninNJ]

I would say that the average 3rd dan in Shotokan is probably better than the 7th dan in TKD.

I'm sorry, your information is biased on what??

N are you trying to offend my TKD instructor ??

I'm not trying to offend anyone. As I said before I know there are some bad Shotokan people and good TKD people. But on average - based on the hundreds of people I've seen doing each - I think the technique is usually more refined and real ability (in a fight) higher for the 3rd dan in Shotokan than 7th dan in TKD.

This is not meant to offend anyone and certainly not a cut on TKD. I know some TKD guys personally and have respect for many of the people doing it and the way they do it. But lets face it...its different.

All you have to do is look at the requirements in time and ability for each rank and you'll see a big difference. And the priorities of each art is different too. You can really advance fast if you do well in a tournament in TKD but its not the same in Shotokan - or at least not the good Shotokan organizations.

I know there are different types of TKD organizations and dojo/dojang just as there are different types of Shotokan organizations just as there are different types of Shitoryu, Judo and Kendo organizations and dojo. There are some great people in each and some terrible people in each and everything in between. But when you take your average Shotokan black belt at a given rank and compare to the TKD guy at the same rank, you usually see a big difference. And if you compare the 2 guys with the same amount of experience and about the same abilities, you usually see the TKD guy is at a much higher rank. That's all I'm saying.

[jion]

I can see this as a personal decision but it's a bit long as far as an orginizational requirement. 23 years? Average would be 5 to black belt another two to nidan another three to 3rd dan. Lets make it a little extreme and go 6 years from white to black, 5 to 2nd dan and another 5 to 3rd. That's still only 16 years.

Yeah, I thought that was too long for one belt when I changed to my current club. But in the end it doesn't really matter what belt you have. In our brown belt classes we teach the grading curriculum for nidan and the current kata is gojushiho sho. At one point, last year, one intructor was teaching unsu. It all might seem backwards and weird, but in the end it doesn't really matter what colour you have around your waist. Now, I kinda like that freedom or lacking of hierachy. *shrugs*

I'm not sure what you meant by "organisational requirement".

It does have a down side though. Most hardly ever grade, never subject themselves to the pressure of grading. Mainly because "If you're a black belt, you'll have to prove it every night". I think that's a bit chicken, but they all think I rushed through my belts

On the positive side though, we have a lot of brown and black belts, now if they were all black belts our club would look very weird. People, luckily, seem to stick with us once they pass green belt.

[Tommy_P]

I'm not sure what you meant by "organisational requirement".

What I meant was that if, for whatever reason someone decided to "not test" and ended up waiting a few extra years, then that's a personal choice. If it takes them 23 years to get to sandan then it's by choice, whatever they're reasoning may be. I myself didn't test for my nidan for 11 years after my shodan only because at the time I didn't see a reason to and just didn't feel like it. Personal choice, but I could have tested 2 years after my shodan, I chose not to.

If the organization sets their curriculum so that it's required to take you 23 years to reach sandan then that's crazy. That's what I meant, it can be done in half that time...normally.

Tommy

[aefibird]

1. Whats the difference between Shotokan Karate and other Karate styles?

Shotokan gets bashed far more than other syles (except maybe GoKanRyu..). A lot of non-Shotokan practitioners (apart from all the people on here of course! ) look down on Shotokan because it is seen as "watered down" or "for kids" or just simply because it is not Okinawan (even though the founder was Okinawan...)

As for the main differences, Shotokan uses longer and lower stances than most other karate styles, to train the legs and encourage correct positioning. Shotokan usually doesn not have weapons training, although many schools are now starting to add weapons as part of their curriculum. Aside from teaching different kata to some other styles and aside from having longer/lower stances there isn't much difference between a good shotokan club and a good club from another karate style; it's all Karate, despite what those people who diss Shotokan might think...

2. My main art now is Taekwondo. just woundring does Shotokan Karate and Taekwondo have similarities?

I do karate and TKD and it is easy to move between the two. Kata/Patterns are usually different - Shotokan generally starts students off with the Heian kata and TKD schools often use PalGue or Taeguek forms for beginners. There is less emphasis on kicking in TKD and hardly any use of jumping/spinning kicks, although they are to be found in advanced kata. Anyway, if you're in WTF TKD then switching to Shotokan will make you feel right at home - WTF TKD gets "bashed" as much as Shotokan does!!

3. Does SK have any grappling strikes??

Yes, many! However, there are a lot of poor-quality Shotokan schools out there; it is the most popular of karate styles and therefore has the most "bandwagon jumpers" who try to teach the art without any real clue of what it is like. GOOD shotokan should include basics, kata, kumite (sparring) of many types, bunkai and oyo (applications of kata). Within those, they shouldn't just be restricted to basic techniques such as reverse punch or roundhouse kick. there's plenty of grappling and groundwork techniques in Shotokan and a good school will teach them. They include chokes, locks, throws, sweeps, armbars, pins etc etc.

Good luck with your training and finding a good school!