Kung Fu School/Styles Question (New to MA)

[ovine king]

Si-Dai Jr. Student

 

Si-Hing Sr. Student

 

Si Suk Assistant Instructor

 

Sifu Instructor

 

SiBak Sr. Instructor (Jr. Master)

 

Sigung/Master Instructor

 

Si Tai Gung/Sr. Master Instructor

 

Sijo Founder of the System.

these are terms used to describe the "age" of the person with regards to their position in the school of martial arts in which they are a member of.

si dai is ANY student (peer) who joined the school after you.

si hing is ANY student (peer) who joined the school before you.

si-fu is your teacher (father/teacher)

si suk is a peer of your si-fu (uncle teacher)

si bak is (also) a peer of your si-fu (can't think of the top of my head what the difference between si-suk and si-bak)

si-gung is your si-fu's si-fu (literally grand father/teacher)

si-tai gung is your sifu's sifu's sifu (literally great grand father/teacher)

si-jo (sometimes jo-si) is the founder.

this is the system that was traditionally used in the chinese systems irrespective of what part of the country they are from.

they indicate your position in the kung fu family and this is not (strictly) a ranking system.

however, recently, some western schools has taken this and made a ranking system out of it which shouldn't be confused with the original use of these terms.

[SigungWhite]

True, But Most traditional Kung Fu systems use this type of title system.

Sigung White

[Gaoguy]

Sorry dude,

You'll never find Cantonese terms being used in the north. Most don't even use Shifu but rather laoshi which is just teacher.

[ovine king]

but that's mainly because of what happened with the cultural revolution and all that: most traditions were systematically removed and that includes the old use of the kung fu family terms.

Traditionally, those terms were used in all chinese kung fu school "families".

These days, in mainland china, the terms used depends entirely on the school. Recently, some "hidden" schools have been making themselves more known after 30-40 years and they still use the old family title system for reference. In a modern school (which in all likelyhood teaches modern wushu or a derivitive of it) you will find that they use lao-shi (teacher) or even just gao-lin(instructor), terms that have no romantic ideal attached to them, nor have any sense of loyalty or belonging. Bare in mind that this isn't because of regional variation; it is because what happened during the cultural revolution.

[Gaoguy]

o,

First I agree with your previous statement about family system. All those titles are in relation to others. But my teacher is in Taiwan. No wushu, just traditional neijiaquan. He called his teacher Hung laoshi (Hung Yishiang), I call him Luo Laoshi (Luo Dexiu, Lo Te-hsiu). To use the term Shifu describes a very particular relationship, rather like padre/padrone.

[ovine king]

to be honest, i'm not entirely sure how martial arts is taught in taiwan.

I have only been there once and i only visited one school (in which they also happened to use the old sifu terms - but that's not important)

and yes.

if you're going to be picky, then really these days, sifu/todai terms shouldn't really be used as strictly speaking, teacher/student these days is nothing like how it is way back when but then again, it is still a teacher/student relationship, just on a different level so in a way it still is valid... after all, the guy who teaches you IS your sifu.

hmm, then again, I've not seen a western school/sifu do anything that might be regarded as fulfilling his role as sifu in the traditional sense.

its use is complicated and at the same time very simple; mostly dependent on the situation which you are in.

[Gaoguy]

BTW the difference between si suk and si bak-one is older than your teacher (sibak), the other younger, in terms of length of time w/their teacher.

[SigungWhite]

True, but depending on the system will determine your status.

Sigung White

[jaymac]

My most experience is Shotokan karate, but I trained for several years in HunGar Kung-fu. I am confused and interested at the same time. We called our instructor Sifu. But he had 5 red lines on his belt. I know it is not considered "dan" but what was it? He said he was 5th degree.

[SigungWhite]

A large group of Kung Fu system have gone to a Degree,Dan.Kyu or Duan/Cheech system. This allows for advancement and teaching stratagies.

Not all Kung Fu Systems have this. Wing Chun has this type of system as well. Some of is commercialization. Howver, many have found this a successful practice and do it with great care. One thing that I have notice like in our System o Kung Fu. They are calle instrutor levels instead of Dans or Degrees.

Sigung White